Why Picking the Right Trucking Broker Can Save You Big!

Understanding the Nuances of Transportation Insurance and Broker Liabilities

In this episode of the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast, Jason Rogers, Senior Vice President at World Insurance Services, discusses the critical importance of working with specialized brokers for transportation-related insurance. He explores the differences between asset-based carriers, domestic freight forwarders, and domestic property brokers, highlighting their distinct roles in risk management and statutory liabilities. 

Jason also explains critical industry terms such as non-admitted carriers, the significance of the bill of lading, and the mechanics of liability limitations under the Carmac Amendment. The conversation emphasizes the need for thorough understanding and communication among logistics providers to prevent fraud and manage risks effectively.


Jason Odgers
Senior Vice President at World Insurance Services
 https://www.worldinsuranceagency.com/about/
 https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonodgers/
 (954) 703-0918
 Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA

Your Hosts:
John Farquhar
National Risk Services Specialist, Transportation, Gallager GGB
https://www.ajg.com/ca/
M: 437-341-0932
John_Farquhar@ajg.com

Chris Harris
CEO, Safety Dawg Inc.
905 973 7056
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
https://safetydawg.com/

00:00 Introduction: Importance of Specialized Brokers
00:16 Understanding Risks for Asset-Based Trucking Companies
00:47 Show Introduction and Guest Introduction
01:34 Specialization in Transportation Insurance
02:52 Non-Admitted Market and Its Implications
06:04 Ownership Structure and Mission of WIS
07:50 FMCSA Designated Authority Options
17:48 Liability Structure in the US
30:25 Collaboration and Communication in the Industry
33:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast

Do you need a "Truck Driver Safety Policy?" Get it today! https://safetydawg.com/policy

Transcript

0:32

Why is it so important to have a broker who specializes? It's really important to have a broker that you're working with who understands the nuances and the ins and outs, so then gets you the, the best form that that matches up to your particular exposures and and risk tolerances. What do I have to be aware of if I am a asset based trucking company and I can get a load from one of these forwarders? Is there a difference? In risk that I'm looking at maybe a little bit. Uh, I don't think that there's really much of a difference in risk to the asset based carrier. Okay. Other than the domestic freight forwarder, because they do have that primary statutory liability, they're gonna be the first stop on the liability train. This week on the show, we are discussing brokers, freight brokers, property brokers. And intermediaries. What the hell? Let's get right into the show that's coming next. Welcome to the Trekking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Jason, welcome to the show. Would you please take a second or two and introduce yourself and tell us about your company? Yes sir. Thank you very much for having me. Uh, my name is Jason Odgers. I'm Senior Vice President with World Insurance Services. And technically World Insurance Services is a retail insurance and bond broker. But there are a couple of things I think that, that really kind of differentiate ourselves, uh, from other insurance brokers that your audience may have worked with in the past. Uh, the first one is that we are specialists in transportation related insurance and bonds. Anything transportation, logistics related. Uh, that's really where, uh, where we, we focus all of our resources. Um, we do not really get involved in standard, what we, we classify as standard commercial lines, property and casualty. Things like, uh, commercial general liability, or property or work comp. Uh, those types of things are, are very well handled. By more generalist insurance brokers. Um, but the things that we do, things like shipper's interest, cargo insurance, cargo liabilities, professional liability, uh, you know, these are, are really kind of special areas of risk management and we really try and focus on those so we can give the best service that we can. The, uh, the other differentiator, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, why, just for the audience, why is it so important to have a broker who specializes. Yes, sir. Absolutely. Because there are a lot of nuances, uh, that, that go along with, with transportation related insurance and bonds, number one. Yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of, of nooks and crannies, uh, things to be on the lookout for that a generalist may not have a lot of experience with. I. And then the other reason that it's particularly important is because, uh, the type of insurance that we specialize in, um, is generally offered in the non-admitted market. Uh, so, so these are non-admitted carriers. Uh, they are, uh, written on forms, uh, that vary from insurance company to insurance company. Uh, you know, whenever we're talking about things like commercial general liability. It really doesn't matter what insurance company or what insurance broker you buy that from. The form, the, the coverage terms are gonna be consistent from insurance company to insurance company 'cause the state closely regulates it. Um, in transportation related insurance and bonds, uh, offered in the non-admitted market. Uh, each form is unique. Uh, so it's, it is really important to have a broker that you're working with who understands the nuances and the ins and outs, so then gets you the, the best form that that matches up to your particular exposures and, and risk tolerances. I hope everybody heard that, that you really gotta work with a specialist who understands your risk, so as you just said, so you can match it the best way possible. Yes, sir. Absolutely. What is, you said something like non-admitted. Is that the right term? What is that? Yeah, so, uh, what ends up happening is in standard lines of business, uh, the insurance companies, um, if they wanna do business in a particular state, uh, at least here in the us uh, insurance regulations are, are state based. Every state has a state department of insurance and has an insurance commissioner. And if an insurance company wants to write commercial general liability, uh, or property insurance or auto you, commercial auto insurance in a particular state, they have to apply to the State Department of Insurance in order to be able to do that. Um. In order to get approved by the State Department of Insurance, they have to agree, uh, to, to certain forms, uh, certain, uh, rate structures. They have to file their rates with the State Department of Insurance. Uh, so. What goes along with that is that if that insurance company becomes insolvent and they, they cannot, uh, make good on a, on a valid claim, then the state will step in and pay that claim to the insured out of the state insolvency fund. Um, now the drawback with a non-admitted carrier is that, um, they are not entitled to participate in those, those state insolvency funds. So if you're dealing with an automated carrier, you, you really need to make sure that that is a, uh, financially viable company, uh, that it's, uh, that the insurance company has been around for a long time. Because if they go outta business and you have a claim, then you can't fall back on that, that state insolvency fund to make you whole. Yeah. I'll translate that and say the trucking company's on the hook. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. A hundred percent for sure. Um, you know, the other thing that I wanted to mention, uh, just really quickly about WIS uh, that is a differentiator for us is our, uh, our ownership structure and, uh, our mission really and truly, we are owned by a international, uh, uh, a global, uh, association of freight forwarders, uh, transportation intermediaries, and, uh, and that group is called the WCA. Um, and because we're owned by the WCA, our mission is really to, um, add value, uh, to, to be a, a, a value added, risk management service to the members of, of the, the WCA as a benefit of membership. So a lot of our motivations, I, I guess you would say. Uh, as an insurance broker may be different. Uh, we, uh, like I say, our, our, our mission is to, to add value, uh, to service the members, uh, to help them, uh, maintain the longevity of their business, to, to help protect them and to offer the best service that they possibly can to their clients. So we're not necessarily out there trying to work with every transportation intermediary or transportation provider in the industry. We have a, a pretty well-defined, uh, core client base, and our goal is to, is to really, um, develop consultative and collaborative relationships with them that, that benefit their operations. Right now I want to get into a bit of the disclaimer here. Chris Harris and Safety Dog. I know nothing about what we are doing. Going to be talking about in this episode. I've got, as you might know, scripted questions, but the answers from Jason aren't scripted, and some of these things like this one. What are F-M-C-S-A designated authority options for domestic intermediaries? I don't even know what I just said. Jason, can you explain the question first and then answer it? Yes, sir. Absolutely. So, uh, the F-M-C-S-A is the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. Okay. Um, and the F-M-C-S-A is, is a part of the US Department of Transportation. So in order to offer domestic surface transportation services within the us uh, an entity, and I should say interstate is very important, uh, right. Entity has to be licensed, they have to have an authority from the F-M-C-S-A in order to transact business. Uh, most folks I think, are, are very familiar with the asset based carrier, the common carrier authority that the F-M-C-S-A, uh, assigns to those asset based common carriers, but. Because of our core client base. The folks that we work with are primarily transportation intermediaries. They're middlemen, they're not the asset operators. They don't own the assets. They don't physically touch the cargo most of the time, but they are facilitating those, those transactions, uh, on behalf of the cargoes. And this, this is somebody like, if I can interpret this, you may be moving freight from. Anywhere in the world and getting it to Houston, Texas, for example. So the people that you represent are ensuring that product right from the beginning, I imagine, uh, onto ships and trains and everything, then onto the trucks as the last piece of it. Is that how it's working? Yes, sir. Absolutely. A big piece of it is, is sort of the pre carriage or the on carriage associated with an international move. Um, where we really got into domestic transportation heavily, uh, was about, I don't know, probably. About 20 years ago now, uh, maybe a little bit less than that. Uh, there was some legislate legislation passed in the US for shorthand. They called it MAP 21, moving ahead for progress in the 21st century. He was some some highway funding legislation. And in that legislation they clarified that if any entity was providing point to point transportation within the US interstate transportation. I keep leaving out very important word, interstate transportation within the us. That was not covered by an international through bill of lading, then the entity providing those services had to be licensed by the F-M-C-S-A. So in, in your example, uh, cargo arriving from Timbuktu, arriving in the Port of Houston, uh, let's just say it to the SE Bo uh, of argument, it was going to Oklahoma City. To get that ocean bill of lading terminated in Houston, and then it was moving from Houston to Oklahoma City on a separate. Contract of carriage, a separate truck bill of lading, not the international bill of lading. Then the entity who arranged for that on carriage, uh, to Oklahoma City would be required to have some sort of operating authority from the F-M-C-S-A, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. So for those intermediaries, uh, there are really, uh, two designations that are available. Um, and I should also note that. For the purposes of our discussion, I'll be talking really about cargo shipments. There are some different regulations that involve household good movers or people movers, bus companies and those types of things. But for our conversation, we're gonna really talk about cargo shipments and whenever it comes to intermediaries, arranging for point to point interstate domestic transportation within the US that's not covered by an international through bill of. Uh, those available designations are a domestic freight forwarder and a domestic property broker. Uh, a lot of times people call 'em truck brokers. Uh, but, but the official designation is domestic property broker and a domestic property broker, uh, for instance, as defined by the F-M-C-S-A. They arrange that that point to point interstate transportation within the us Uh, but they are strictly, uh, an agent of the cargo owner. They are not representing themselves as a carrier. They don't issue a house bill of lading that reflects them as the carrier. They are strictly a facilitator, strictly an intermediary working on behalf of the cargo owner. On the other hand, the domestic freight forwarder is very much like the international N-V-O-C-C or non vessels operating common carrier, which is to say the domestic freight forwarder does not own or operate the assets. They're not physically moving the cargo. However, they represent themselves to the shipping public as carriers. Um, whenever you look at the safer file on a domestic freight forwarder. They'll have an FF prefix, FF 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, whatever it is, and, uh, the service that they're authorized to provide for whatever reason, and safer, it doesn't say domestic freight forwarder. It says contract carrier. So whenever you look in safer. Common carrier contract, carrier property broker. Those are the three things that that, that you see. The domestic freight border is considered to be a contract carrier. Um, they represent themselves as carriers. They issue bills of lading that show them to be the carrier, and most importantly, they have the exact same liability for physical loss or damage to the cargo as an asset based common carrier has. So the. Domestic property broker because they're an intermediary, uh, because they're a facilitator, because they're not a carrier, they're not issuing a house to bill lading, they do not have a prescribed statutory liability under the Carmac amendment to the Interstate Commerce Act. On the other hand, the domestic freight forwarder, because they are considered to be a contract carrier, they do have the exact same strict liability for physical loss or damage to the cargo as a a common carrier. See now I think I'm a little bit clearer on Well, 'cause I really didn't know the difference between a domestic freight forwarder and a property domestic property broker. Yes, sir. So the, the domestic, see if I got it right, the domestic property broker looks like a trucking company but has no assets. All, almost. That's the domestic freight forwarder. The domestic freight forwarder is the one who acts like a trucking company but doesn't have assets. The domestic property broker is just a facilitator, just an intermediary helping to arrange on behalf of the ship. Alright, so if I am a and I've spent all my life, uh, in the asset-based trucking companies and insurance, um, what do I have to be aware of? If I'm a asset based trucking company and I can get a load from one of these forwarders, is there a difference in risk that I'm looking at? Um, you know, I think that maybe a little bit, uh, I, I don't think that there's really much of a difference in risk to the asset based carrier. Okay. Other than. The domestic freight forwarder, because they do have that primary statutory liability, they're gonna be the first stop on the liability train, right? Yes. Uh, so. Ideally what'll happen is if a claim is made against a domestic freight forwarder, they will have primary cargo liability insurance. The asset based carrier would call that motor truck cargo liability insurance, uh, but the domestic freight forwarder will have a version of that insurance, uh, that we just simply call primary cargo liability. So the primary card liability of the domestic freight four should be the first to respond to a client's liability, uh, claim. Uh, but one of two things is gonna happen. Either their liability insurer is gonna look to subrogate that, uh, that payment out to the underlying carrier and their motor truck cargo insurance, or. You know, if the claim is denied by the primary cargo liability, it's still going to, you know, funnel through to the underlying carrier anyway. Uh, on the other hand, the, the property broker. Does not purchase primary cargo liability insurance. They purchase what we call contingent cargo liability insurance or contingent motor truck cargo liability insurance. And that is really simply a defense cover it. It says, Hey, our client is a property broker. They don't have a statutory liability. Let me help you, uh, go find, uh, the motor truck cargo insurer of the underlying carrier and help facilitate your claim against them. So from that perspective, I would say that. Uh, it, there might be a slightly more acute exposure for the motor carrier when dealing with a property broker, but at the end of the day, it's still gonna funnel back, uh, to the underlying motor carrier one way or the other. Yeah, and that's what I suspected. Basically, if you're hauling the freight as an asset-based carrier and you damage it somehow, um, you're the one that's gonna be responsible for it. But you're, yes, sir. And, and you know, I I, I do think that that that's a great transition, you know, to, to something that I was, I was hoping we would have the, the opportunity to talk about. And that is that based in my experience and, and I've been working on the insurance side of the industry now for almost 20 years. Um, but based on my experience, I think that there's a very, um. A very poor understanding of the liability structure within the US generally. Uh, I think, well, let's get into it. Yes, sir. Absolutely. Well, you know, and, and I think that if you, if you talk to most cargo owners, I think most cargo owners have the misperception that. Hey, if I give my cargo to a carrier, uh, whether it's an asset based carrier or a domestic freight forwarder, or even a property broker for that matter, if I give my cargo to somebody, uh, to arrange transportation, uh, to, to the destination, and something happens to it along the way, that that logistics provider is going to be responsible to me for my loss. Um, and unfortunately, uh, well, unfortunately for the cargo owners, fortunately for the logistics providers. That's really not the way that the, that the liability structure is set up. Um, the reason for that is that if every logistics provider, asset based, non-asset based, intermediary, whatever, if every logistics provider had to accept a full value liability, I. For a hundred percent of all the cargo that they, that they arranged for, for transportation, uh, they would, they would never be able to do it. Uh, because number one, you know, these guys, they, they handle millions, hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of dollars worth of cargo, uh, in an annual period. And if they had to be responsible for the full value of every one of those loads. Uh, they would never be able to do it, uh, because they, they can't retain that exposure internally. They simply don't have the resources, and even if insurance were available. Which I, I strongly doubt that it would be, I don't think that an insurance company would, would take that kind of a risk either. But even if it were available, the premium associated would be cost prohibitive. Uh, and, and virtually nobody would be able to to afford it. So what would happen is the, the pool of available service providers would shrink drastically down to a small handful of, of big pocketed companies. That could actually afford to, to manage all of this risk. Um, it would, it would result in, in shortage of service providers. It would result in, in explosion of freight rates. Um, and, and it would basically bring the, the supply chain around the world to a halt, right? Uh, because nobody would be able to, to, to operate any longer. So understanding that. The regulators, uh, put in place a, a a full structure, and it, and it really doesn't make it, it varies slightly from, from industry to industry. But suffice it to say that in every industry, every different type of, of logistics service provider either has a prescribed statutory limit of liability. Or they are provided the opportunity to limit their liability for physical loss or damage to cargo, uh, under statutes. So for example, in Ocean, ocean transportation, the carriage of Goods by SEA Act, uh, here in the US limits the carriers liability of $500 per customer shipping unit. Uh, the Carmac amendment, the Interstate Commerce Act says that, well, it says a few things, but number one, it says that a carrier has a strict liability for physical loss or damage to cargo. Essentially, uh, in layman's terms, that means they're guilty unless they prove themselves innocent. Uh, but there's a couple of caveats that go along with that. The cargo owner has to, uh, form a, a, a prima fascia case against, uh, the carrier. Okay. So, and what that I was gonna say, what's prima fascia? Uh, what that, what that basically means is they have to prove, uh, a few things. They have to prove that they tendered the cargo in good condition. Usually that is done by the, whenever the carrier signs off on the bill of lading, accepting the goods. If they sign off on that bill of lading clean, that's generally considered proof that they tendered the cargo in good condition. They have to prove that it was received in exceptional condition, that there was some loss or damage. Again, the the do or the bill of lading, whenever the receiving, uh, party, uh, signs off on that bill of lading clear. Uh, that's generally considered, uh, evidence that the carrier redelivered the cargo in good condition. Uh, and you know, by the way, that is, I would say the number one reason that we find the carrier liability claims are denied is because whoever is, is receiving the cargo at the warehouse, doesn't properly inspect it. Doesn't count every carton doesn't, doesn't pull a pallet apart to make sure that there's no concealed damage. Uh, and so they sign off on that bill of lading claim. Uh, you know, two days later they're putting the, the cargo into inventory and they say, oh my goodness, you know, half of this load is damaged. And they try and file a claim and the carrier, uh, then tells 'em, you know, uh, very, very sorry about that. But I've got this bill lading that was signed off on with no exceptions. So obviously that damage must have occurred after my driver delivered the cargo to your warehouse. Yep. Um, and then the, the third thing that that is required to, to create that prima facie case is you have to prove financial damages. You, you have, you know, using commercial invoice, using a, an estimate for repairs, whatever. You have to prove that there was some financial damage. So again. You start off with strict liability, then you have to, to prove the case against the carrier. Now the carrier's put in a position where they have to, to prove that they weren't responsible due to one of the statutory exclusions to carrier liability. Things like, uh, an act of God, an act of, uh, public enemy, an act of public, uh, authority, uh, act or fault of the shipper. Or inherent vice of the cargo. Those are the only exclusions to carrier liability. So strict liability, prima facie case, none of the exclusions are applicable. The carrier is liable. Absolutely. Uh, full stop. End of story. The problem is. The carrier is permitted to limit their liability. Uh, and and whenever we talk about carriers limits, a lot of times it brings us to a conversation about the released rate doctrine in the Carmac Amendment to the Interstate Commerce Act and what the release rate doctrine essentially says. Is that the carrier is allowed to limit their liability. So now we've already established that the carrier has liability, right? But the carrier is allowed to limit their liability to whatever level they want, and we see it as 50 cents a pound. We see it as a hundred thousand dollars per trailer. We, that the carrier can limit their liability however they want, as long as they do a few things. Uh, they have to, uh, maintain a rules tariff. That that says what their limited liability is, they have to issue a bill of lading, uh, prior to the commencement of transit. They have to give the cargo owner a reasonable opportunity to choose between multiple levels of liability. Um, so the way that this is effectively done is on the front of every bill of lading, there's a section for declared value. And if the cargo owner doesn't write anything in there. Then the rate that was quoted to them for transportation is considered their release rate. That is the rate that's applicable. If they release the carrier from any exceptional liability, you know, in excess of what they've agreed to in, in tariff, and the freight can be moved. However, if they write a value, uh, in the declared value section, then the carriers agreed limit of liability goes out the window. They're now responsible for the full value that was declared on the front of the bill of lading. But the other thing that goes out the window is the release rate, uh, the, the quoted rate for the transportation. So if I am trying to move something from Atlanta, Georgia to Chicago, Illinois, maybe I've been quoted$2,000, and the carrier's limit of liability is 50 cents a pound. Well, if it's a 40,000 pound load that's only $20,000, maybe my cargo is worth a quarter of a million dollars. If I rate $250,000 in the, the declared value section of the bill of lading, the carrier's liability is now a quarter of a million dollars. But my freight rate to move that same container from Atlanta to Chicago might go up to 2,500 or $3,000. And the reason for that is the additional liability that they're taking on and the additional insurance that they have to purchase to address their liability. So again. Liability insurance. And, and, and one of the main takeaways that I I hope that everybody gets from, from this interview is that liability insurance, I mean, it doesn't matter what kind of liability insurance it is, all liability insurance exists to protect the insured. And in, in our conversation, the insured is the logistic service provider. Uh. The primary goal of that liability insurance is to protect the logistics service provider from the financial consequences of their business operations, either to defend them successfully against a claim, or to pay those sums for which they're held liable. Hopefully, uh, their, their declared limit of, of liability. It is not. To make the cargo owner whole. Uh, liability insurance is not designed to make the cargo owner whole. That's what shipper's interest cargo insurance is for. And if the shipper wants to protect their final financial interest, they should buy shipper's interest cargo insurance, which is where a person like you comes into effect, I believe. But a, a couple, absolutely. A couple of things that I want the listeners and watchers to hear is you said the sign bill of lading. Is basically contracting that trucking company now to say, Hey, this was all in good shape. And then the other thing I want them to hear really clearly is when they write a declared value on the bill of lading, you better know about it because it makes a big difference. To you as a, uh, again, I'm thinking as, as a trucking company, uh, 'cause that's where my experience goes. Is that right? Yes, sir. Absolutely. And in, in fact, uh, most of the time, you know, honestly, every motor truck cargo insurance policy I've ever seen, uh, you know, the intent is to address the carrier's standard liability. And if there is a declared value on a shipment. 99.9% of the time, the motor carrier is gonna have to declare that declared value to their insurance carrier and pay additional premium for that. So, so yes sir. You're absolutely right. If it, it's something everybody should be aware of. If somebody declares a value on that bill of lading. They, they should report that to their insurance company because if there's a total loss, for example, on a, on a shipment, they could be held liable for that, that entire declared value amount. And if they have not declared that to their insurance company and paid additional premium for it, then their insurance company is not gonna respond to that declared value. It should still respond to their. Limited liability, but not the full declared value. Yeah, that, sorry, those, those last few points I think are critical for everyone to hear and understand and then go back and train your drivers appropriately.'cause they're the ones that are signing the bill of lading and committing you to a contract. Yes sir. Absolutely. Last word to you, Jason, as we wrap up, what haven't we yet? Talked about that you wanted to get into, uh, in this interview? Well, you know, I, I, I think that, that one of the, the, the main, uh, items that I wanted to touch on was sort of the, the interaction between the different types of service providers. Um, you know, I, I think that there's, there's. Certainly no need for there to be any sort of an adversarial relationship between an asset-based carrier and an intermediary, regardless of whether they're a domestic freight forwarder or a property broker. You know, especially whenever, uh, whenever we're trying to make sure that we're providing the best service that we can, uh, to the shippers whenever we're trying to fight this epidemic. And it, it, it truly is an epidemic. I know that, that you guys spoke with, uh, a, a good friend of mine, uh, Liam. From a, a couple of weeks ago, and you guys spent a lot of time talking about fraud and theft by deception and, and things like that. That is, that has become an epidemic. And the only way that we're going to, to address that is the carriers and the intermediaries and the cargo owners working together to make sure that we're weeding out the bad actors that we're putting in place best practices, uh, to make sure that we're, we're verifying and validating, uh, the authenticity of, of. Carriers not only at setup, but whenever that driver shows up at the, at the loading dock to pick up a, a piece of freight. Um, we, we were just notified literally yesterday of a theft, uh, that occurred in California on Monday. It was one and a half million dollars worth of crypto miners. Uh, it involved co brokerage. It involved illegal sub brokering, it involved, uh, identity theft. Uh, and we're just peeling back the layers of the onion now, but long story short is that a million and a half dollars worth of crypto miners are gone. Um, so, you know, it, it's something that, that likely could have been avoided through better communication. So I think that the industry overall, we, we have to implement better communication. Amongst all the parties involved in the shipments. Very importantly, we have to slow down. Uh, we, we have to commit ourselves to not cutting corners, uh, to doing things the, the right way, the appropriate way, the way that, that, that best guarantees, uh, that, that we can keep these bad actors out of the supply chain, um, and, and, and really have the, the, the best opportunity of, of. Everybody's best interest being served. I really think that that is, is is one of the, the, the biggest takeaways is, is just collaboration and communication is key. Work together and slow it down a little bit. I'm sure everybody's got the right policies and procedures, but it's when they cut corners that they get caught with their pants down to be figurative. Jason, I wanna thank you so much, um, for coming onto the show. This has been great 'cause I didn't know very much about what you are an expert in, so I appreciate the education. Jason, thank you so much. Thank you very much Chris and Jason. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Truly appreciate it. I learned one heck of a lot. And if you also learned, please click the like button. Leave us a comment, who would you like to have on the show next? And of course, don't forget to subscribe to the Trucking Risk and Insured podcast. Love y'all. Catch you later next week. Right here.