Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast

From Courtroom to Cab: Insights with Doug Marcello

• John Farquhar & Chris Harris • Season 2 • Episode 102

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Trucking Risks and Legal Insights: A Conversation with Doug Marcello


In this episode of the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast, hosts welcome Doug Marcello, a veteran trucking defence lawyer, to discuss various legal challenges and insights affecting the trucking industry. 

Doug shares his extensive experience, recounting cases and addressing contemporary issues like the dangers of YouTube distractions for drivers, the implications of new drug and alcohol clearinghouse regulations starting November 18th, and the ongoing challenges with marijuana legalization. He also provides valuable guidance on how trucking companies can improve their operational protocols to better defend against lawsuits, emphasizing the critical role of safety practices in minimizing risks. 

The conversation covers the potential pitfalls of drivers unknowingly using CBD products and highlights broader concerns about distracted driving. Overall, Doug stresses the importance of proactive risk management and the need for accurate internal processes to bolster legal defences.

Here is the link to Saxton & Sump: https://www.saxtonstump.com/

You can contact Doug through this link: https://www.saxtonstump.com/contact-us/

Contact your hosts:

John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca


Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056



00:00 Introduction to the Guest: Doug Marcello

00:26 Doug Marcello's Background and Experience

01:59 The YouTube Problem for Truck Drivers

05:41 Distracted Driving and Mental Focus

11:00 Drug and Alcohol Clearinghouse Updates

22:07 Legal Challenges and Safety Measures

26:50 Final Thoughts and Safety Emphasis

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

This week on the show we have Mr. Doug Marcello of Saxon Strum. Yes, Doug is a lawyer, and before you go, oh my god, lawyers! Doug is a good friend to the trucking industry. Yes, Doug is a trucking defense lawyer. Stay tuned, welcome to the Trekking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Doug. It is such a pleasure to welcome you to the show. Can you start off by introducing yourself to our viewers?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having honored to be here as always. Doug Marcello. I am a trucking defense attorney. Uh, I have done that for about the last 30 years. Uh, been an attorney for about 112 years. Uh, I have had cases, uh, 35 states and even, uh, uh, Uh, one case, uh, up in Canada one time. Uh, and I have my CDL. Belong to a lot of organizations and, uh, speak, uh, around, uh, not just the country, but you guys have been kind enough to have me up north and, and look forward to it.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

It's, it's great. You are well known as a As you said, a trucking defense lawyer, but really, I'd translate that and say you're a friend to the trucking industry and trucking companies individually. Agreed. For that, Doug, thank you so much

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

because My pleasure, you know, i've been very blessed and the industry's been very good to me. So, uh, whatever I can give back It still will not be as much as it's given to me. Thank you very much

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Unfortunately, our industry sometimes needs good defense Hey, one of the things that uh, I heard you speak about that was uh, johnny's event the um, Uh, john, what was that called again?

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

It was our Fleet Safety Council Central Chapter meeting back in June of last, well, June of this year.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Great event.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

I mentioned to you that I'm stealing this from you, but can you just address the YouTube problem for a minute?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Yeah, what, what folks have run into, and I've had the, uh, uh, An acquaintance who's a jury consultant that had shared with me that he's run into this a number of times. Drivers will be out on the road, get into an accident. In today's digital world, they can tell what you're doing, whatever it is. And a number of times upon inspecting the phone, they find out, they don't even have to look at it digitally, they find out that the driver was on YouTube at the time. Now, you know, we can, and you know, I'll be the first to confess, there are times that I listen to things on YouTube. But the problem is going to be this, you know, because it is YouTube, it begs a visual kind of sensory perception on it. Perception that people have that if you are on YouTube, whether you're listening or not, it's going to be the perception. The argument is going to be, you were watching TV at the time of the accident. It's along the same lines of people go like, well, you know, I can, uh, hands free one touch or voice activated text when I'm driving. You can, but the records are going to show you texted when you were driving. And so now it comes down to are they going to believe that you did it without using your phone? Just did it vocally. So that's the thing we run into with, uh, with YouTube as well.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Well, and, and since I heard you talk about it, it didn't take me long. I Googled it. And maybe you don't know, but I was astonished. 2. 6 billion users of YouTube music. 2. 6 billion. Some of them gotta be truck drivers.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Yeah, it's, it's a, uh, it is one of, it's not the largest source of music for folks. Uh, it is the second largest source of, uh, searches of any platform only exceeded by Google, which owns it. So. You know, it has really become, uh, you know, when I talk about a lot of things, investigation or post accident, I always say we live in a YouTube society and people expect there to be video either before, during, or after the accident. A number of times we've sent folks out, investigators, we've been able to get the accident on ring doorbells. We'll canvas the area, you know, intersection cameras, adjoining businesses out there. Uh, but that's what people expect to see, let alone the in cab cameras. Because a lot of folks are used to seeing those on urban buses. Now, I don't know up, up with your folks, but down here, particularly, let's say SEPTA in Philadelphia, they have interior cameras on it so that after the accident, The people who make claims, they actually know we're on the bus as opposed to coming in later or just saying they were. So, you know, there's all types of video around today and we see all types of things, those billions of users you referred to.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

And I got to be careful because even this podcast, I create a, an audible, uh, version of it and it's on YouTube music. So, you know, anyway, the, and John and I have been fortunate enough to, uh, Interview a forensic, uh, cell phone, forensic guy. And it's amazing what they can find from cell phones, but let's change subjects. Because, well, for one, I'll say thank you, Doug, because, uh, that's a great piece of information that I'm using, um, at my driver meetings now, because I really don't believe drivers understand. They can't use YouTube, even the music in the cab of their truck. Or else they'll need the, uh, need to hire Doug to try to defend. Well, it's, it's hard to defend, is it not?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

It is. It's, it's difficult. You know, you've got to come into a causation thing. Now, you run into several things. First of all, uh, and the YouTube thing is a whole different issue on it. But when the FMCSA has, uh, Commissioned phone studies. What are buried in those phone studies, and I saw it in the one that Virginia Tech did that they made the regulations about phone use in the states. Then when I looked at the footnotes, I found this has occurred at least one other, and I think multiple other ones. The, the, here's the thing. They found that drivers, particularly at nighttime, who were on a hands free phone, had less incidents than drivers who were not on the phone.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Interesting.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Think about that. And so one of the things I'm trying to look into is, I don't know how far I'll get, is we have a huge issue with distracted driving. And I think a lot of the distraction is the mental vacuum that's there. I mean, we're asking people to do tasks for 11 hours a day. With just looking straight ahead, it seems counterintuitive. Is there some way that we can deal with that? There's a professor out at USC that says it's not an addiction. It's a habit. Is it a habit we can break? How can we do it? And maybe the answer is to fill the vacuum with something that's non distracting, but at the same time keeps people mentally alive.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

When I was in, so this is a long time ago. I was in my early twenties. So very long time ago. I worked for a sign company and we produced billboards. And there was a study done at that time that the highways with the highest concentration of billboards actually had the fewest collisions.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Huh. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

So that kind of goes to with what you're saying.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

So it, yeah, it's, it's interesting that that was a very old study, obviously. Well, I, I

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

was, I was going to say, when I used to drive, when I was a little pup, um, one of the things that I did was I created a routine. So, you know, you learned early on that you needed to check your gauges, you need to check your mirrors left and right, and, uh, also look out the window. So, I created this routine that said, you know, every so many You know, seconds, once a minute, or something like that, you did this scan, so I always make a point of, you know, doing this scan of sorts, and the challenging part was, and you guys are hitting it on the head, was that dead zone between that scan. You know, you had to fill that, so, you know, I always had music playing, and it was something that I like to listen to, not just create a white noise, and one of the things I used to love to listen to was talk radio.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

You

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

know, uh, but you had to make a point of break away from the talk radio to do your routine, right? You had to make sure that and you always looked far enough ahead, looked in your mirrors, and it wasn't just a scan, it was a Actually look at it. Look at the gauges. Look at them. Don't just scan them and wait, look for a red light. No, no. Scan them. See where they're at. Look way ahead. Look in the mirrors and try to look way back in the mirror to see what was going on. But you know, and at the same time, you know, you'd listen to a little bit of, uh, talk radio or some music or whatever like that. You know, my dance routine never ever did come to fruition. So I didn't have the room in the cab to do that. So I am.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

I was talking years ago to a woman in Austria and she was saying that the problem with the, uh, particularly the states and why we had so many accidents was our speed limit. It was too low. She said, you know, like over here on the Autobahn, you can't, you can't drift off in your mind. You are focused all the time because you're going 150 or so miles an hour. Yep. I don't think the FMCSA or safety experts would buy that, but that's a different perspective

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

out there,

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

so.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Yeah. Well, we have too many young people nowadays that think, I can do, you know, 200 kilometers an hour in my dad's car. There's new Audi or there's Mercedes or whatever. It's like, yes, you probably can. However, this is not NASCAR or F1. And all the other people around you are not driving at that same speed or have that skill level to drive at that kind of speed. Yeah, they're driving on the highway.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Talking about driver's meetings, one of the things I'm emphasizing now is, you know, if you look down to text or whatever it is, how many seconds it is. How many feet you're traveling at? 55, 60, 65 miles an hour. And if I put you in the cab, blindfolded you and said, I want you to drive for that many seconds at 65 miles an hour, you would rebel, but that's what we're, that's what we have now. And that's what we're facing right

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

now. It's crazy. Let's talk about, you mentioned something about November the 18th, uh, and the clearing house. So that's for the listeners. That's my short form of the drug and alcohol clearing house. What's happening November the 18th?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

November the 18th What's happening is they have finally linked the clearinghouse where all of the positive drug and alcohol tests have to go into run by the FMCSA Link those to each individual state's driver motor vehicle location so that they'll get notified and if you are in the clearinghouse Your license will be degraded. You'll be taken down from a CDL to a regular driver. Now, the way most of these states are doing it, and I think this is, this is the way to do it. Uh, for example, here in Pennsylvania, we sent out 3, 000 letters to drivers going, Hey, Uh, and we did it proactively. Well, you're, you showed up in the clearinghouse, uh, you're going to have your CDL taken down if, if this isn't correct, or there's a mistake or something, tell us, you know, rather than just stripping with a license on it. Uh, yesterday I did a webinar for the folks in South Carolina. I think they said they sent out 1300. But what's going to happen is that, uh, the, the CDL you may have in your possession, uh, A CDL, but when you get to a roadside and they run it, if you are in the clearinghouse, then there's a situation where that's going to be, you're not going to have the CDL. You're going to be downgraded at that point. A lot of issues come up on that. A lot of challenges on it. You know, uh, actually the American Trucking Research Institute did a study and part of that was a survey of drivers. If it's legal in your state to use marijuana, can you use it as a commercial driver? 19 percent said they didn't know. 6 percent said they thought they could. That's a quarter of the drivers who either don't know or think that they can on that. So, uh, you know, it's, it's something that really, uh, is potential. We've got now 277, 000 drivers who have tested positive. into the clearinghouse. Uh, and that's just at the end of August. Of those, about 83, 000 have gone through the process to come back in and be able to drive again. But that still leaves 177, 000 drivers out of the driver pool because they still haven't cleared the drug and alcohol clearinghouse. Right.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Well, and it makes you wonder how many of those have left the industry.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Just you put it on the head, John. Uh, you know, I, I, I was talking to somebody, uh, and they said, uh, that, that they went to somebody they knew who, uh, had, has a non CDL fleet and said to 'em like, how do you deal with, or, or basically has another fleet says, you know, how do you deal with this whole situation, particularly where they were located in a, in a large city, you know? And he goes, I put 'em in the, uh, the non CDL units. So they're, unfortunately they're out there driving. Uh, and the other thing we talked about yesterday is until they come up with a toxicity level of THC, you know, that it's going to be a, it's going to be a binary question. Yes or no. That's it.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

So those, just to be clear for our listeners, those letters that you're talking about are for drivers who've had a positive drug test done. Report submitted to the clearinghouse.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Yeah, at least or at least, John, where it's going to be one where their name's in the clearinghouse. Okay,

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

and they haven't completed the return to duty.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Yeah And again, you know We're talking about Uh, a government program inputting data. So, you know, like we've seen it on CSA. Human frailty. There's a chance for errors in there. And I think this is a good thing to notify drivers. Like, look, you know, we have you as reported in the clearinghouse. Um, you know, we're going to take your CDL by a certain date. Uh, if that's wrong, send us proof or send shows that you've gone through it so we can kind of clean it up. And I think that's a positive process in that.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Doug, just so you know, our listeners are about 60 40, 60 percent American and 40 percent Canadian. But those Canadian listeners may be asking right now, is there any talk about, uh, the Clearinghouse sending, uh, that same letter? To the provinces involved so that driver gets suspended or loses their CDL. Is there any talk of that yet?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

And I have not heard anything about that.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Okay.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Interaction there and I haven't heard any any combination on that as well. So yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

I will bet that that's coming but probably many years down the road. Um since I mean John how long how many years has it been that there's been the spot on the SMS overview. What do you call it? The Safer. Yeah, there for the Canadian information. There is a contract sign between the two governments to exchange that inspection info. It's never happened.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

No, Alberta is about the only province. I know that has allowed flow, but it's not with all US states. It's mostly with the Western states underneath Alberta where we see some of it, but it's not, it's not a complete process. I can tell you here

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

in Ontario, there's only 13 states, I believe it is, that tells the Ontario government about things like speeding tickets. And I can tell you which one for sure doesn't. But don't ask me how.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Well, you know, one of the key things, uh, particularly for those listening in the States for the drivers, make sure that you have your information up to date on your license, your address and everything, because as a general rule, most of the mail from the DMVs of the States is not forward. Uh, and so it's either going to go to the old address. It's going to end up with someone with To whom you no longer reside, uh, make sure you get the information.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

I'll throw what I think is a little bit humorous. You mentioned, you know, no longer residing and things. Here in Ontario, uh, the Ontario government in their wisdom has decided they won't remind you that your license is going to expire any longer by mail. You can sign up for a text reminder, but you've got to physically go there and give them permission to text you. So, um, yeah, no, so there's unlicensed drivers out there because they didn't get the renewal notification because there isn't one. Do you know approximately how many positive drug tests since, I'm talking about cannabis specifically, uh, since cannabis has been legalized in Canada right across the country and I believe it's 37 states, something like that. It's in the thirties I understand. Do you know offhand how many positive cannabis tests there have been since this legalization started to happen?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

In the states for marijuana, I think the number has been just north of 200, 000, right around the 200, 000 positive tests on it. Uh, there's a study that I just read in the New York Times the other week, uh, to give you the magnitude of the problem, uh, where about 6%. of the population in the United States has a form of marijuana use disorder. Now that's not mean they're marijuana users, but it means that they're, the use is to such a degree that it is problematic. And, uh, there is about 1 percent who have a, uh, Marijuana, uh, dependency or have become an addiction to marijuana. So you're talking 18 million people with a dependency problem and 3 million people with an addiction on it. And let alone, you know, all the medical problems can come from it. The states have started early, the increase in psychosis, particularly for young people under 25, you know, not here to moralize, but you know, there are health implications out there. It's one of the youngest languages on this. Uh, and then you have the drivers who unsuspectingly use CBD oil,

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

uh,

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

unregulated, uh, and I was just at the, uh, uh, American Trucking Association had a, uh, uh, toxicity doctor in, uh, and he indicated CBD oil by itself doesn't do anything for you. Uh, the only way it's going to help you is or give you any release if it has THC in it. And the THC products that are out there now, the legal products, there has been what the New York Times described almost as an arms race to increase the level of potency. Wow. So, even the stuff that's out there is, is, it's just getting more and more potent all the time. Yeah. So, it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna really be a long term issue.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

I heard something on the radio here recently, I was listening to, actually it was um, Road Dawg Trucking. On Sirius XM I was listening to and there was something about it and FDA has not even approved a number of these CBD oil applications and whatnot. So that's a bit problematic.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

John, I don't think there's been any regulation or approval on any of it. It's totally, it's totally the wild west out there, totally unregulated on the whole thing. You know, I was in California a couple weeks ago, THC infused beer. Out there, you know? Yes. The, the products. And, and so, you know, it used to be, it used to be, you know, you know, for, for how many years guys, the old secondhand smoke story, you know?

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Yep.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Now, I was talking to a, a, a on a webinar the one time and one of the safety directors a couple months ago said, lemme tell you the best one I have, I had a driver tested positive for cocaine. And he said it wasn't his fault because there was a crack house down the street and a tornado came through it, so.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Well, I'm just, I'm just waiting to see if they're going to infuse Doritos with THC because then that'll take care of the munchie problem.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

I think it's a circular issue, John. So, uh,

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

and people, yeah, that's a global warming problem again, that, that driver was pointing. Yeah, yeah,

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

exactly.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Any, any last word on, uh, marijuana, cannabis, THC, before I ask you a different highway?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

I, I think we're good with that one. So I appreciate it.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

I, this one came to my head just, well, you were talking about, uh, one of the other things, What are you seeing right now, because you are a lawyer, what are you seeing in courts that trucking companies might be able to do in house to make them more defensible? What could they do to help you in your role as a defense attorney?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Well, you know, I can go into detail on this, but I think we're going to go longer than Ken Burns does. But, but I, I think kind of the short version is this is the most important part of the case is now before the accident happened. Uh, what we need to do is to look at the consequences of risk and try to Be proactive on it. Uh, I do a talk, the, uh, the, uh, death by dogma things companies do. And most companies do it. They've always done it, but can get you be problematic. Manuals, make sure that your manuals, uh, isn't just a, aren't just a set of slogans, but make sure that they are what you need to do. Limit them, reduce your exposure for the call. Whoever takes the call from the accident, make sure they know the importance of their position, takes down the least of information. When it's needed. And go from there. Data. We're no longer operating mechanical devices. These are electronic devices. They're coming in OEM with everything from the, uh, the, the ECM to telematics to the forward looking radar, etc. Make sure you know what you have. it. Analyze it. What is t relates to your accidents then discipline it on the biggest thing, if anythin situation we have. We're beyond that. It is a crisis and it doesn't do it justice to call it anything less than a crisis of what's going on. We have to do what our part is to take away the hook that they can get into the companies in this time of crisis. And I think the biggest thing we have to do there is to, is to do and be ever vigilant in terms of What is it? Because they're not looking for the accident. They're looking at systemic failures. And that's where the companies, to answer your question, have to get ahead of them, get ahead of the curve on that.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

One of the things I heard you say, and I want to make sure I heard it correctly. The fella who, sorry, the person, try to get with it, Chris, uh, the person who takes that phone call, takes down only the information that's necessary and nothing more. Is that what I heard? Okay.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Exactly. Because here's the deal. If they take down information, let's say the description of the accident or something like that, and they get it wrong, we're going to have to live with that through the entire trial. And we can try to correct it, say they made a mistake, but the other sides, the billboard attorneys are going to be quick to say, well, you know, yeah, right. That's what he took down. And that's what was said before safety got involved. And before the lawyers got involved, you know, let's minimize it. You know, where's it at? Anybody injured? Uh, any hazmat spill, uh, then let's get it over to, depending on the nature and severity of the accident, let's get it over to somebody else now.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Well, I was going to say, to perfectly fit with that, It doesn't matter what happened at that point in the game. It doesn't matter what happened. We need to deal with the now of, okay, we've got to clean this up. We've got to get injured parties dealt with and whatnot. We don't need to go, holy crap, what happened, Bob? Jeez. You know, it's like, no, no. Okay. Is everybody all right? What do we need to do?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

I just gave a talk to, and I've been a client of mine and I've been kind of saying this for years. And so I've got the opportunity to talk to their terminal managers. And like, look, you guys aren't investigators. You know, I understand human nature. You, you, you mean, well, but you know, if you get into this, talk to the driver, get factual background, you're going to end up in a deposition, you know, in the definition, you know, the difference between a definition and a colonoscopy. One of them is a, uh, Has an unpleasant preparation and is an intrusive bodily function. Uh, and the other one is a medical procedure. So, you know,

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

that's a good one. I like that. Wow.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Try the veal tip your waiters, but thank you.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Uh, Doug, last word to you, uh, as we're just heading into what we shoot for about a 30 minute uh, talk. But uh, last parting words would you like to leave the audience with?

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Uh, best defense to an accident. The best defense to a lawsuit does not have an accident. You know, the premium's on safety. And I'm getting ready to do another talk. John, if you got an opening for me, glad to come up and give it. It's called Safety Profit. Uh, and the notion is that the safety office is too often looked at being folks who, uh, are a financial burden. Everybody else generates profit. But in today's world of deductibles and, uh, retention, self insurance, safety is what's going to determine the bottom line, the profits of companies. Uh, and they are the ones that can, through all different other departments, reduce the risk and try to make sure that we don't have the accident. That's the best way to, uh, to denuclearize your company. Every

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

1. 3 million miles, a truck is involved in a crash. That may sound like a lot of miles, but. There's a lot of crashes. Well,

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

you look at it in the States, three million truck drivers, eight million people in trucking. So three million drivers can get to 1. 3 million miles pretty darn quick.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Yes, exactly.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

I became an attorney to avoid math, so I'll let you guys figure it out. Yeah, yeah, no

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

doubt.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:

Doug, Marcel, thank you so much. Oh, thanks, guys.

Doug Marcello, Saxton & Stump:

Always a pleasure. Greatly enjoy it. And appreciate the opportunity. Honored to be here, guys. Thanks, Doug. You are awesome and truly a friend to the trucking industry. If you got something out of this, please leave us a comment, click like, and subscribe. And John and I will see you next week on the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Have a safe week.

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Chris Harris

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John Farquhar

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