Empowering Women in Transportation: Insights from Stephanie Shrum

Empowering Women in Trucking: Insights from Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum
In this Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast episode, hosts welcome Stephanie Shrum, a program manager from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum (CAF). 

The discussion centers around strategies to attract and retain more women in the transportation and trucking industry, applicable on both sides of the Canada-U.S. border. Stephanie highlights various resources, such as the Office to Advance Women Apprentices in Canada, and emphasizes the importance of creating a welcoming workplace culture. 

Key topics include recruiting through employment agencies, connecting with educational institutions, conducting culture audits, and utilizing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) training. The conversation also touches upon the proposal to make truck driving an apprenticeable trade, aiming to elevate training standards and ensure safety in the industry.

Our Guest:
Stehhanie Shrum, Program Manager
stephanie@caf-fca.org

Email for more information on the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum’s Mentor Development Program and Leadership Development Program, along with Recruiting and Retention information.

Resources:
Canadian Apprenticeship Forum website: www.caf-fca.org
 
Link to Mentor Development Program and Leadership Development Program: https://leadership.caf-fca.org/
 
Link to Recruiting and Retention Best Practices guide: https://caf-fca.org/research_reports/best-practices-for-recruitment-and-retention-guide/  (you’ll notice that it says ‘login/sign up’ in order to access it.  It is a free, publicly available resource and people just need to set up a very brief profile to access the guide.  It doesn’t cost anything to set up the profile, it’s just for us to see how far the guide is reaching)


00:00 Introduction to Women in Trucking
00:09 Meet Stephanie Shrum from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum
01:46 Challenges and Solutions for Women in Trucking
04:39 Creating a Welcoming Workplace Culture
09:24 The Importance of Safety and Risk Aversion
10:51 Recruitment Strategies and Family-Friendly Policies
20:02 The Push for Truck Driving as a Formal Trade
29:28 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca


Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056



Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast

Do you need a "Truck Driver Safety Policy?" Get it today! https://safetydawg.com/policy

Transcript

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 0:00

How to get and then keep more women in our workforce, our transportation and our trucking. We have Stephanie Shrum from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum on the show this week, and that's what we're discussing, and it applies to both sides of the border. Let's welcome Stephanie. Welcome to the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Stephanie, welcome to the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Can you, um, please do a brief introduction of yourself?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 0:36

Of course. Well, thank you so much for having me here. I'm very excited to join you. Uh, I'm Stephanie Shrum. I'm from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, and I'm a program manager with that organization.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 0:47

And what the heck does a program manager do?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 0:52

That's a great question. You let me know if you find out. We have a number of different programs that we run here at the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum. We're going to talk about a couple of them today. And my job is just to, uh, to, to come up with some of the ideas, but largely to manage all of the different folks that are included and make sure everyone has what they need, uh, to me, to, uh, deliver these programs. Um, and I'm just super excited to be able to do that. Cause I think some of them are really cool.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 1:26

Cool. And before we lose too many of our American listeners. Many of the things that you're talking about today apply both in Canada and to our friends in the United States. So, don't leave us, please, American listeners. Hang in there. Yeah, absolutely. Steph, the first thing Is welcome to transportation and trucking and we need more women in our trade. How in the heck are we going to achieve that?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 1:58

Oh, that's a great question. There's a number of different ways you can achieve that. We actually wrote a guide on that at the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum. So we do, uh, we do have some real resources available that are for free on our website. Um, but, uh, well, this is actually, it's going to be a bit of a long answer. So what we would recommend to folks who are looking to increase the number of women in their organization is firstly, to not do it alone. There are so many different organizations whose purpose is to help get people into employment. And some of them are. Specific to women, uh, and their, their whole job. And I'm just going to mention the Office to Advance Women Apprentices here in Canada, because I work with them very closely and I'm working with them on a project right now and their job is to help, um, employers find women and women find employers and in each of the provinces and territories, and I'm sure you have resources very similar in the United States. Uh, we have government funded resources whose job is to help people find each other, uh, and it's free. And they will do some vetting. They help people with their resumes and interviews, but more importantly, they help employers to find the folks that they're looking for, find really good candidates. And they can do a lot of that, even on initial onboarding piece. Some of the programs here will provide funding to employers to help pay for some of the initial training. So my first, first, uh, recommendation is don't do it alone. Okay. Um, secondly is to think very creatively about how have you always done your job search or your, sorry, your job posting and what can you add on to it? Um, so part of it is working with employment agencies, um, in here in Ontario, they're funded through Employment Ontario. Part of it is also looking at. How can I connect with the schools? So the colleges because they have targets as well. They have employment targets. They want you to connect with them. They want to get their people out there. Um, so can I connect with universities? Can I connect with colleges? Can I connect with training schools? Can I connect with trade organizations who might have people looking for employment? Um, so that would be my first suggestion in trying to increase the number of is to find the organizations who are there to help you. And, and connect with them. That's their job. That's what they really want to do.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 4:26

One of the problems, from what I understand, obviously, with my beard and everything, I'm not a woman, so I can't, um, imagine this exactly from that point of view. But, transportation specifically, many of the trades have not been female friendly. Um, when I've heard of stories, when women join a company, uh, you know, inappropriate comments and jokes, um, even washrooms, uh, are not readily available. Are there resources? Is there training? How do you reeducate us men mostly? Because we're the, we're the, well, honestly, we're the bad side of it. Um, you know, is there something that an employer could do to make their company more attractive to women?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 5:20

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing that we encourage is for employers to do, we call it a culture audit. It sounds really serious. I mean, it is in terms of its outcomes, but, um, what we encourage employers to do is take a look at what, how does their current culture operate? How are, how are people feeling when they're here? And you can do that in a number of different ways. The federal government in combination with, um, electricity, HR actually has a tool it's called equal by 30 cause they're hoping to have the trades equal by 2030. Um, and, uh, and that's a really easy tool to use, but ultimately we would say, look at your culture first, see if there are any areas where perhaps maybe this isn't as welcoming as I want it to be, um, for women coming into my organization. And then I would encourage employers to work with organizations in your industry who, uh, who, who have the resources and can really help you to implement some amazing programs. So for example, women in trucking, um, they, uh, they're, they're sort of oriented towards encouraging more women to get into the industry, but also encouraging employers to make it more welcoming and also, and, you know, just change the culture a little bit. Um, we have DEI resources. All over the place. So DI is Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. And so some of those things, like for example, I'm thinking of the construction industry right now because that's where I'm a little bit more familiar, but we do have tools like Inclusive Workplace. Um, and that would be true of any organization. I mean, building an inclusive workplace is an inclusive workplace, you know, um, it can transfer from construction to trucking to wherever to rail. And we also have a number of different speakers actually on our trades talent platform who do Justice, equity, inclusion, training with employers. And that's what they do. That's their job is to go and work with employers to increase some of the knowledge around inclusion in their organization. So there's, there's lots of different training resources out there. Um, at CAF, we run a justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion committee who have a number of people who are incredibly knowledgeable. Um, and we would be, you know, happy to connect folks with the right resources. Wow, lots of opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a really big part of our focus at CAF is building equality within the trades and, uh, and really helping employers because people want that, right? I mean, even if you think about being a person who's traditionally been in the trades, you still want to be treated well. You still want to be treated as though you have value. You still want to have an environment that feels safe. So many of these strategies are true of a lot of different kinds of people and groups of people.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 8:09

Yeah. When years ago I was talking to, there's an American organization. You've probably heard of WIT, women in trucking. And, um, I was talking to the founder and she said much the same thing. She said, Chris, if, If we improve lighting at a truck stop because women feel unsafe, didn't we improve it for the men too? Right. She said if we improve how storage in a tractor because typically women are shorter than men and women have a harder time reaching it. Didn't we also improve it for the short men out there? Makes total sense. Yeah. So many of the things, uh, you know, that we just take for granted, um, also help when we make the adjustments and the improvements for everybody.

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 9:00

Absolutely. Right. I mean, I could go on for hours about if you do this for women, doesn't that also help the men? Yeah, exactly. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. Men are just too tough to want to get to it. That's the problem. But, you know, after, after the fact, I go, Oh, yeah, that is better. I kind of like that. That made my job a little easier. You know, but you don't want to admit it because they're bad. Like wussies.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 9:24

The big reasons I'm, as a safety person, and I know John feels this way, as a safety person, typically, you know, take that brush out and paint everybody with the same thing. Women don't take as many risks as men. Therefore, that translates generally into women are safer truck drivers and better at it often than men, because they, they tend. Um, to be risk adverse as a general statement, although I live here in Hamilton and I'm telling you every car that passes me in the last two years, typically it's a woman. Now, they seem to be adapting, we'll call it that, to aggressive driving. Trying to get somewhere, you know? Yeah, yeah. Got things to do. Got things to do. Multitasking more than men. You know, generally speaking, they are a safer car. type of truck driver, statistically. So from a safety point of view, dammit, we could sure as hell use more women in the trucks. Right, Johnny? Oh, big time, big time. There's no doubt about that. Well, and usually that brush you paint people with, sometimes you have to use it to beat a couple of people with it. And nine times out of 10, you don't have to use it on the ladies. Cause they, as you say, it's proven they're much safer. They're calmer. They're more relaxed. So. And better organized. Some of the things, well just to, if we've got some women that are interested, um, just to give a shout out, years ago when I was a recruiter, and this is many years ago for a trucking company, we had dedicated auto parts runs. And Steph, that may not mean anything to you. A dedicated run in auto parts, it's a dry van trailer, it's got the barn door or the roll up, The hardest thing the driver has to do is open up the trailer door. It's all no touch freight. You know, what time you've got to arrive. So, you know, what time you've got to leave and generally auto parts are needed on the assembly line. So there's very little waiting at the doors. So you get offloaded and then you're coming home and I'll tell you. I could not recruit women. Now, this was a seven day a week operation, 24 hours a day. But if you're on a dedicated run, you had a schedule. Interesting. And

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 11:57

do you mind sharing where you were recruiting and what sort of strategies you were using? Like, so women weren't applying at all?

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 12:05

Well, and this is a long time ago when women weren't as much in the industry. Out of 800 drivers, at that time, I had one woman. So, and as I said, this is probably 40 years ago. I didn't, my mistake, I'm sure, is that I didn't change my advertising. I was advertising in a recruiting magazine, was about the only place we advertised. Because that kept our trucks full at the time. And it was the same ad, Uh, and it was a text based ad, no pictures if I remember, with our logo. You know, and I'm sure it would, it talked about the same thing that every trucking ad talks about is, you know, this is how much per mile. And we treat you really well. And yeah,

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 12:57

but it probably didn't at the, I'm sure it didn't at the time because we just kind of started doing this in ads, but it probably didn't talk too much about how it's a family friendly environment because you're able to work specific hours. Probably didn't talk a lot about things like if you had parental leave that was covered or benefits that covered child care and those sorts of things. So things that are really appealing to women who are primary child caregivers for the most part. I mean, certainly families have changed a lot over time, but. Still, we see that women tend to hold most of the responsibility for child care. So, um, things that, that we're encouraging employers to think about when they're recruiting women is, are you being really upfront about the different ways in which you accommodate family? Um, or, you know, I think, I don't, and I don't know if you focused on, your hours are very dedicated, they're the same, you know, you've got a schedule that you can count on, it's consistent and stable, um, and those, that applies to any caregiver really, anyone who has, Children in their family and do child care. I'm sure care, right. Um, but we do tend to see one of the, one of the number one barriers for women specifically in the trades is that the child care

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 14:21

again, this is going back. I'm old, so I can go back many years. But I went on, and this has little to do with trucking, but I went on a tour of an auto parts factory. I believe it was a Toyota, down in Kentucky. And one of the things they pointed out in the tour is that they have a separate building that is personed by a nurse. And If you have a sick child at home, instead of missing your shift, bring the child where they have a dedicated medical professional there to take care of the child. And I thought, holy crap, this is really innovative. And part of the reason they did that is they had rewards. For 100 percent attendance. And so if they're rewarding a hundred percent attendance, and as you just said, women typically are the primary caregiver. Well, that was a barrier for them. So they tried really hard to remove the barrier by giving the women the option or by giving the family member, really, uh, the option of bringing a sick child to have them taken care of by a medical professional.

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 15:33

That's amazing. That's very innovative. Wow. Good for them. Yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 15:36

And this was, as I say, many years ago, and they had two sections. They told me in that building, one was a daycare. So that if you were needed daycare service, you had that. And the other part was, uh, I'll call it a sick bay. I'm sure they had a better term for it. But can you imagine if, you know, a trucking company, um, was to offer something like that. That would open. That's got to crank the doors open. Um, so anyway, what, what else is happening? Sorry. Let's get back on subject here. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, but we don't know when this is going to air. So it'll be a Friday. What else are you doing to help get women? Uh, not just into trades, but do you have any specific initiatives for trucking?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 16:40

We do have, we, the initiative that we have that's specific to trucking right now is we are doing events like this, um, where we go around and we speak with employers about, here are some of the strategies that we'd recommend for recruiting if you're not using them already. Here are the organizations that are available to you, um, to help you in your journey as you kind of transition into maybe some new candidates. But in addition to that, retention is a really big part of what we're focusing on when we're speaking with employers. So we're talking to them a lot about, okay, now that you've gotten the women here, that's amazing. That's a great start. How are you going to keep them? What does that look like? And so a big part of the guide that we created, it's a recruiting retention guide, um, is a lot How are you doing the training and onboarding? What does that look like? How are you setting expectations with people? Do the folks that are coming into your organization know who, first of all, their sort of primary mentor is, and then from there, do they know how to ask difficult questions? Do they know who to go to if they're having a challenge and they need to get it resolved? Um, do they know what's expected of them, what their milestones are, and are they aware of their peers milestones as well, so that they kind of know where they fit? Into the structure of your organization. So there's just a lot that we're trying to do with employers around. Here's how you can help set new people up for success. Uh, and here's how, here's how you can help your, the women and, and just people really to stay in your organization and to want to grow. Um, and in addition to that, we actually do have a couple of programs at, um, CAF for mentorship and for leadership for women in the trades. And our, our thought on that and what we've seen through a lot of the research that we've done is that women tend to feel isolated, um, and they don't tend to see themselves in leadership positions a lot because there just aren't, you know, As many women in leadership roles. And because of that, it can feel a little bit like maybe this isn't for me, or maybe I don't belong here because I don't see myself in roles. That are, um, a little bit higher up maybe than perhaps the apprentice role or an early journey person role and, uh, or in, in trucking and driving, I guess I'm not as sure of what your hierarchy might be in terms of going from a driver to other roles management, perhaps, or a fleet operator movie, but, um, So our goal is to try and then provide the skills in terms of manager in terms of leadership and in terms of mentoring others so that women take on these roles either formally or informally, but they can show there's a lot of great opportunity and then also the women coming into the trades. Have a higher chance of having a woman as a mentor and that might just help with some of that onboarding. It might just help feeling a sense of community, um, and, uh, and, and with a sense of seeing kind of the next steps in the career progression.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 19:40

Cool. Yeah. And sorry, say the, um, You've used the acronym a couple of times, CAF, and I just want to make sure our listeners know exactly what that is. And what is it?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 19:52

So when I say CAF, I mean the Canadian Apprenticeship, uh, Forum.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 19:57

So that leads me into my next kind of section. And here in Canada, there is a group of people that are starting to really push hard Uh, trying to make truck driving an apprenticeship, a formal trade. Uh, can we talk about that a little bit as we move on?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 20:21

Yeah, yeah. Is there anything specific you'd like to talk about?

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 20:26

How in the hell are we going to achieve it? It is so needed. Long overdue. Um, you know, and now I'll spout an opinion. You know, currently to get an AZ license here in Ontario, you do a hundred and three and a half hours of training, plus your air break, so it's another ten. Um, You're, quote, a truck driver when hairdressers do thousands of hours of training. And what the heck? When's the last time a hairdresser killed a client? Where truck drivers, unfortunately, that happens far more frequently. So we, I really believe we have to elevate driving as a trade, make it a profession. How are we going to go about and convince our government And even in the states this has to be done, I believe. How are we going to convince governments? They're very difficult to make the move.

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 21:28

Um, well, I mean, firstly, I'll say there's a, there is a reason that there's multiple steps and it's because there's competencies that need to be in place. There's oversight regarding those competencies. You've got to have trade schools available to do the training. So there's a number of different. Reasons that it is a little bit complicated to get, um, a trade to be a red seal or just a skilled trade in general that's apprenticeable. Um, but the, the red seal. So here in Canada, unfortunately I'm not as familiar with the process in the States. Um, but here in Canada, we do have On our redseal. ca site, um, there is actually the steps outlined to make a trade, um, a red seal trade. And so you would need to go through those appropriate steps. But one of the biggest things that tends to be influential is if industry also believes that it's really important. So if employers are saying, you know what, I actually would really like to have the opportunity to provide more training. I would love for someone to tell me which competencies are really necessary in order for these people to be able to move forward. Um, and, uh, and also associations, you know, so in, uh, next week, I think it is, I'm going to be chatting with, um, with the Professional Truck Training Association of Canada to talk a little bit more about what they're doing to move the process forward. Um, but the really big thing, Is having the folks who are going to need to do the training on your side and saying absolutely We really want to be able to provide this training We want to be able to work with a lot more of the training schools to get more competencies within our drivers We think that safety piece is really important um, and uh, and and then it's just it's a lot of conversations. It's a lot of Filling out applications and moving them forward, you know, and, and getting letters of support, um, from the employers, from associations, from trade schools, um, and getting those in front of the people who make the decisions.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 23:26

I know some of the people that are involved and I know you're involved and they are some of the smartest and the brightest and most dedicated transportation professionals in the industry. So there's a good team pushing. Yes. Hopefully we can get the government to listen and go through all the appropriate steps because it's not something, anything that is remarkable that you are proud of. Takes a lot of work. And so, you know, I don't want to lower the standards. I want to raise our standards to meet the Red Seal criteria. Because I truly believe trucking is. It's long overdue. Um, it should have been addressed years ago. Um, it's something that's been lacking in our industry for a long time and it's a shame. It really is a shame. You know, there are other. roles in other industries that you sit and go, well, I'll use the example of Chris did, you know, hairdresser. It's like, well, what's the worst you can do? Lop off my ear, you know? And, but it's, it's like, why has there been so much attention paid to that? But then this very dangerous role, and they've said it's, it's a very tough role for anybody that gets into it. Why are we not providing more guidance, more training for these individuals to be better at that role?

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 24:54

I mean, I don't know that answer, but No, no, I'm not looking for you to have it, but You know, it's that hypothetical question to go, See, first people, we gotta, you know, Everybody has to put their heads together And realize what's going on out there. You see it in the media, You see it in the trucking media, It's all over the place. Our current process of training new drivers and young people into this industry is atrocious. We are literally killing people for no reason at all, you know, and, and there needs to be more done about it. And the Red Seal program would be a huge step up.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 25:30

And Stephanie, understand what John just said. It's the process today is greatly improved over 10 years ago. You know, to give kudos to Ontario, it was the first jurisdiction in North America to come up with a minimum training program for tractor trailer. And it's, um, finally being adopted. I think it's in all provinces now. Pretty much all provinces now. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a very similar standard in all the provinces and the United States recently. Did something, uh, I don't want to say similar because it's quite different, but they also have a minimum training standard. Um, so it was, in my opinion, what Ontario did, it was a good starting point. And now we're at the point where we can improve this and apprenticeship is the next step, I believe, to making that, uh, ultimate improvement to it. I think it could take a tenfold, if not more.

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 26:32

Any, any enhancements to consistency in the training, to the regulations within your safety, um, curriculum specifically, but, uh, I mean, anytime that you're increasing the consistency, you're increasing the standards, you're increasing, um, the knowledge and confidence within the people that are driving the trucks, you're gonna, you're going to have better results. You're going to have a safer, you're going to, you know, um, Crew in general, right? And we, we see that all the time and that's a really big part of why we care so much about apprenticeship. And a lot of, you know, don't get me wrong. A lot of what I'm, I'm, we're looking for in the industry is not to say it needs to be government mandated to say, you need to make sure the drivers do this, this, and this. There has to be onus put on to the employers of this industry. They need to be made, held accountable, not made accountable, held accountable, but to have standards in place to say, hey, a driver now has to have this, this, this, this, this, and go through these programs and steps and whatnot to validate their ability to get behind the wheel of a tractor trailer with 18 wheels on it carrying 80, 000 plus pounds, you know. There needs to be standards in place to hold these employers accountable because unfortunately they're the ones that are really unscrupulous at times and just going, Oh, guy's got his license, throw him in the truck, send him on his way. You know, and, and the guy's going, I don't even know where the blinker switch is. So, Mm-Hmm.. Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: overwhelming when you have new people and, you know, you want them trained, but you don't necessarily have, uh, the material to train them with, or maybe, or resources necessarily, the levels of different competencies that each person is gonna need, because it's never been provided to you. Mm-Hmm.. So you're just, you know, you're maybe going on the internet to figure out what's gonna be really important here for new training for new people. Um, or maybe you've got a lot of years of experience and you're exceptional at it. But if you're a newer organization or you're a really small employer and you've got a number of different things that pull on your attention all the time. If you don't have a structured system that's provided to you, it's really hard to know what is really important and crucial to ensure that my staff has before I let them go out on the road. And if you have something like an apprenticeable trade, that tells you very clearly, here are your competencies. And also you're now working with trade schools that are going to give them a bunch of those competencies as well. And you can feel confident that they're all getting the same thing. And you've got different standards in place and you've got the availability to access resources. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 29:15

And that's one of the biggest things that I want our listeners and viewers to hear is that there are resources available and there's a number of them down in the show notes down below. Stephanie, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a really important topic, how to get women into trades and specifically into trucking. Um, but also by making it more welcoming to women. It's gonna make it a better place for mything. Big time. It's It sounds kind of familiar. Stephanie, uh, last word to you. Oh, thank you.

Stephanie Shrum, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum: 29:58

Um, so thank you, first of all, so much for having me. Um, I would just encourage you if you're looking to, uh, increase the, the different kinds of people that you're recruiting, you're looking to have more people in your organization who are women, uh, or gender diverse folks or from equity priority groups, uh, or you're really just looking for opportunities and resources to increase. The skill set of the women that you have in your organization, uh, or you're really just looking to learn more about apprenticeship, please go to the Canadian Apprenticeship Board and we have a ton of different resources. We'd love to be able to help you. We're a national not for profit, so everything we do is geared towards just helping you, helping folks, um, you know, in the apprenticeship world or in the, in the world of trades.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: 30:42

Thank you, Steph. If you picked up some tips this week, please click the like and subscribe buttons, and we appreciate it so much. Leave us a comment, and John or I, or both of us, will answer your comments. Have a great week. See you next week on the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast.