Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast

Revolutionizing Truck Training: Meet Jim Campbell and the PTTAC

• John Farquhar & Chris Harris • Season 2 • Episode 78

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Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Hey, this week on the show we've got Mr. Jim Campbell from the Professional Truck Training Association of Canada. This is a new group, and their goal is to make our roads safer. You gotta take a listen. Jim is next. Welcome to the Trekking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Jim, welcome to the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. We're discussing today Professional Truck Training Alliance of Canada. What the hell is this? And why do we need it? Jim, introduce yourself first.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Good afternoon, or good morning, I guess I should say. Nice to meet you, Chris and John. My name is Jim Campbell I'm The truck training lines of Canada is, is a group of like-minded people that, that we got together with and, and got talking about the different types of training and di different issues throughout Canada with the trucking industry. So you know, I made some phone calls. I, I started this in 2022 is, and when, when I started working on it and made some phone calls and, no, it just kind of bloom and it's really taken off in the last couple months here. More so than last month. We did our first press release and I've been getting all kinds of inquiries and You know, everybody's taking notice, which is, which is a good thing. So, all right. I I did think about this about five, six years before that and, and and gave a few phone, phone calls and then just kind of put it on limbo for a little while. Did a little bit more research and yeah, 2022 I got a little bit more serious. And here we

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

are. Okay. So you own a truck driving school, correct? In Winnipeg?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

I do. Yep. I, I, I own the First Class Training Center in Winnipeg, and we've been in operation for a little over 12 years now. Okay,

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

and the PTTAC, as the acronym is, or Professional Truck Training Alliance of Canada, this is a group of truck driving schools across the country, is it not?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

That's right, you know, we want to, Try to get all the provinces across Canada, you know, coast to coast to coast. So yeah, we, we have the whole goal is to get at least, to start with two reputable schools in each province to represent the provinces. And it's working out very well. Yep, it's working very well.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

A step in the right direction.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

That's right, yeah. And I saw a recent press release. I could also be an associate member.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

That's right, yeah. Yeah, we have basically three Levels of membership. We have the school membership affiliate industry associations.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Yeah, because I saw PMTC and Kelly Henderson's transatlantic human resources. Did I say that right?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Yeah. Yeah. Tracking human resource sector council, Kelly Henderson and PMTC. They, they're very excited to be on board with us and, and, and that's, that's

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

huge. Yeah. I mean, it's one, it's huge to have associate members too. It's huge to have quality associate members because that speaks a lot about your organization. You know, other good organizations support you. Absolutely. Why do you think it is that we need a, an alliance for truck driving schools across Canada?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Honestly, I, I, I think it's a mess.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

What's a mess? Be specific about

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

The industry is becoming a big mess. What's going out in the industry is becoming a big mess. Things need to be fixed and addressed. It's something that's needed all across Canada. Because I've talked to different provinces, and we all have our issues, and a lot of them are the very same issues that we're having. That are not being addressed and I think it's time that, you know, we stand together and start making push for some decent changes that are going to make a difference in road safety. That's what this is all about is road safety, right? We all have loved ones on the road. And that's what concerns me, it's concerned me from day one. And that's one of the main reasons why I've been pushing this. You know, it's there's a number of things that have to be done. You know, we all know about the Humboldt and what happened that time. And it's unfortunate that something like that had to happen. To make government officials take notice. You know, I pushed for mandatory training many, many years, almost a decade before that even happened. And turned to blind eyes or deaf ears. And well, they came out with this MELT program and you know, because they basically had to. It was worldwide press, right? So they, they figured, okay, we'll throw out a MELT program and which they did. And, and I'm not knocking the official for this. I mean, they Something had to be done. And honestly, MELT could is a good program, but there's lots of room for improvement and they drop all in a lot of different areas. And I think that's the importance of forming a group like this, where we could all put our minds together and come up with a solution and hopefully, Fix the problem, right? Or address it. And

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

yeah, so. Just for our listeners and viewers, MELT is the Minimum Entry Level Truck Driver Training Program. I don't think I said MELT exactly right, but that's what it is. Has it now been adopted in all of the provinces, or is it close to being adopted in all of the provinces now? It is, it's

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

definitely getting closer. But the problem is, is not consistent.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

No, no, it's different. Varying levels of it across

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Canada, isn't there? Absolutely. I mean Ontario, I believe, is 103. Right. Without air

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

brakes, but without air brakes, it's 103. Without the air

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

brakes, that's right. And then it went to Saskatchewan, Alberta at 121 and a half hours. And then Manitoba ended up adopting. Saskatchewan, Alberta is at 121 and a half hours. B. C. is a little bit more now. And, you know, they just got got their MELT system going not that long ago, which is a little bit more hours, which I understand for the mountains and stuff like that. But you know, there's no consistency and more importantly, there's no oversight.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Well, in I mean, honestly, being a truck driver for many years myself, just being trained 44 hours behind the wheel, it's a great starting point you know, which comes to the next part of, you know, every trucking company needs to have a quality finishing program. To take that truck driver with just 44 hours of experience and now it's up to the company to finish them. But, let's get back to, to your organization. So you want some consistency. How would this affect topics like immigration for truck drivers? How do you mean Chris? Specifically, I'm thinking of the Red Seal program for trades.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

I think the Red Seal program is, I mean, people have been pushing that for many, well, for decades, right? Something that has to be done and I think it's without it, it's kind of hindering our industry. You know, our, you know, let's face it, our industry is not all that attractive. To the younger generation nowadays, you know the waves aren't there, you know, I mean this is a hard job and it's a very hard, stressful job. You're alone a lot of the time and you know, we got to make it a little bit more, throw some more incentive in there, right? And more importantly, having a red seal is going to get them properly trained the way they should be. We need companies to put some skin in the game on this as well, you know, to take on somebody and supply a mentor to these drivers and carry on with that mentorship program, the finishing program, and make sure they're trained properly before handing over the keys and doing that solo trip.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

And the other part I think that's important about the Red Seal, and again, for some of our listeners who may not understand what Red Seal is, if you think of it as a, Not an electrician, or a carpenter, or a mechanic, or a hairdresser, or a chef, right John? Once you've gone through your apprenticeship program and everything, and the program is, Jim, throw your two cents in here, I believe it has to be recognized right across Canada in order to be considered a Red Seal program. But if the trade is, and that's an important point there, it has to be a recognized trade. And right now, trucking Truck driver is not a recognized trade because we don't have the training, we don't have the documentation, we don't have the ongoing training, and it's not consistent right across the country. Are these some of the things that PT the P T T A C is trying to address?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Absolutely. You know, I mean, we have a number of different things on, on for, for a mandate and that's definitely one of them, yes. You know, I you know, John and I were talking earlier about Apprenticeships and who has to go through what and I mean hairdressers. It just baffles me They do a great job in everything and they go through a lot of training, you know, I talk to my hairdresser We have this

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Well, let me, let me share with you some of those stats. I've got them right here because I'm, I'm anal about this as we got into our conversation earlier. So in order to become a Red Seal certified hairdresser, you have to complete the following requirements. 3500 hours. Okay. So approximately two years of that 3, 500 hours, 480 hours of it is in school training. And then the other 3, 020 is on the job mentoring, apprenticing and whatnot. And all that has to be documented. 480 hours in school, in class training to be a hairdresser is a far cry. From 103 and a half hours to be a Class A or class one tractor trailer driver. I'm, that's gonna, and then there's, yeah, and then there's no formal finishing training that's documented or structured or anything like that for that driver to carry on, you know, for another 3000 hours. And it's like Absolutely. Wow. Like

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

how, and I, I feel perfectly safe in that chair. I get my hair done. Yeah. At all, you know, well, but yet somebody could go take a 30, 40 hour program before milk came out. Even now with milk with 121 and a half hours, it, it's not a lot of training. And, and mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm., you know, kind of wonder when you're meeting some of these drivers on the road, you know, you don't know what training they have. And so yeah, something has to be done about that. And you know, it, it, it, it, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You, no matter which way I try to work it out, it's just not making any sense to, at all to me. Yeah. Yeah,

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

yeah, yeah, it's, it's, there's something upside down here that makes you scratch your head and go, how is this possible?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Yeah, you know, I we, we, we teach in Manitoba, a lot of us are teaching the 244 hour program, the six week program, which is the, the largest program in Manitoba. We are certified and registered for milk, but I've never taught that at my school yet. Even six,

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

not a lot of time. Sorry, Jim. What I'm hearing is you haven't lowered your standards to meet the minimum training. Your standards are higher.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

They always have been. And I'm going to continue to push for that. It's like I said, six weeks is not a lot of time. You know, so you still need that finishing program. And we need companies to step up and help out with that and give these training, you know, further that training as much as possible. You know, I would love to have a larger program, you know, with mentorship and everything else. But unfortunately, I mean, this is all the government's going to fund us is for what we have right now and no further. So, so it makes it a little bit more difficult.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

With this new alliance, this is a great opportunity for the schools and the industry to work together to develop that mentoring program or the apprenticeship type program, you know some longer time. In class, and then some mentoring, training, through a structured program that could be carried on through the transportation company, the motor carrier, who could then document that process, and then the school could probably police that process as well to make sure, you know, how are we making out with that program in order to attain a Red Seal certification.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Absolutely.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

My son's a carpenter. He's a red seal carpenter. Every, what it was once a year, he had to return to school to learn how to swing a hammer. And, you know, there's a lot to carpentry, but there's a lot to truck driving. Trucks are changing

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

every day. You know, the You know, the technical end of the truck, you know, the, I think we do driver evaluations as well, and it's amazing, you know, the bad habits that form, I mean, we all go through that at some point, right? That needs to be addressed.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

And not only the drivers, or in this case, the students that would come to you but I believe we don't really have a true, Certified Instructor Program as well, do we?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

We do or we're supposed to. Every province is a little bit different, but again, no consistency across the board. And MELT is supposed to be a consistent program because when I went through all the consultations with MELT here in Manitoba, again, you know, I'm not bashing the government or the people that work on MELT. I still think it could be a very good program if it was done properly, but They wanted the 1 21 and a lot of us pushed for 244 because I mean, we've been teaching 244 or six week program for decades here in Manitoba. And our point was, you know, why do we want to change that when it's a proven method? Mm-Hmm.. And they, I think their minds were made up at that point already anyway. And with the 1 21, but we are still allowed to do the 2 44

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

mm-Hmm.. Right. Well, let me just say that melt is a lot better than what we had, which was nothing. Absolutely.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Like I said, they had to do something, right? Now, the downfall to that is that they dropped the ball in a lot of different areas.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Yeah, I mean, well, it can be improved. And one of them here in Ontario, as John alluded to, there's no instructor certification, is my understanding. And Ontario probably, and I have no stats on this, But I got to imagine we turn out a lot of truck drivers. Mm hmm.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Yeah, based on population alone.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Well, the number of schools in the province. Yeah, yeah. That type of thing. So, I really believe, and I know this is one of your mandates for the the association, I believe, is to get a standard for the instructor, is it not?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Absolutely. Yeah. Again, something that has to be done, you know, it varies all across Canada. We need more consistency, so everybody's teaching the same thing. Well,

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

and the thing is, we've got lots of instructors, and I don't want this to sound negative by any means, we've got a lot of good instructors out there, and some certification would help to recognize those guys that are helping to teach new people how to drive

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

tractor trailers. Absolutely, that's so important. Yeah.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Years of experience that, that, that goes a long way and, and, and needs to be

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

recognized. Absolutely. And, and again, you know, that, that, that's part of the oversight as well. The people that are teaching these individuals and, and taking 'em to the test site to, to get their license and, and cha challenge their, their test are, are the instructors being questioned? And ask for their instructor's permit, not your name, you know, so it's, there's a lot of things that could be fixing the problem and for a while, you know, they We have people teaching, not just here in my province, but people are teaching how to do something they don't even know how to do themselves. And we all know how good that is for the industry, right? Yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

I can tell you a true story from, now this is an older story, but a friend of mine, he was driving forklift at a trucking company that I was working with. And it came out in conversation that they had their tractor trailer license. I said, why aren't you driving tractor trailer? Well, I failed my road test here when I applied and they put me in a forklift. I said, oh yeah, this is a part time job for you, right? He said, yep. I said, what do you do full time? Oh, I work for a truck driving school down the road. I'm an instructor. I went, what? I said, explain this to me. And he said, well, the day I passed my license and got my tractor trailer license. The school offered me a job.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

That's scary, isn't it? Unfortunately, that's what's out there. I mean There's a lot of good drivers out there. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, I mean, the other ones that are going to cause problems and, and, and having, and, and, and no fault of the student. I mean, if the student's in a crappy program, he doesn't know any difference, you know, he assumes that, yeah, he's got the best training ever, but he has nothing to compare it to, right?

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Right, right. Jim, let me give a shout out to TTSAO. because they are now auditing, one, new schools that want to get into TTSAO and they're auditing their existing schools and I can, because I'm one of the auditors, I think there's seven or eight of us, I can say that, no, they actually have standards for the instructors and that was not a TTSAO school. So for any students listening, listen to Jim, do your research in your province. And reach out. Jim, is there an association in Manitoba for truck driving schools?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

No. I mean, I think a lot of provinces have in the past tried to form one but didn't last very long. But the Professional Truck Training Alliance of Canada is the only association that is specifically for truck driver training. So this is something as you know, Kim's mentioned, or Kelly's mentioned this, Kelly Henderson Mike Millions mentioned this, this is something that's been needed for a long, long time, and yeah, and so it's going to, it's taken off very well right now, and it's going to continue to do so.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Jim, let me tell you, as soon as I saw the press release that this had officially been formed, that's, as you know, that's when I sent the first email out to Mr. Richardson to say, introduce me to my new friend Jim, because I do believe, in all of my heart, we've got to improve how we bring people into our industry. I love trucking. The way we used to do it just isn't good enough and we've really got to make it more attractive and making it a trade is one way to make it more attractive and we've got to make it safer for the employees, for the motoring public and it's, you know, I, I read a lot of stats and trucking, trucking fatalities in Canada are still going down. When you compare it to the number of miles and the number of vehicles on the road. But as long as there's one fatality, that's still too many.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

So Absolutely. I mean, and there's nothing more important to the trucking industry than road safety. And road safety is going to start with the training period. You know Absolutely. And you know, I, I, I see the same stats as you do, Chris. But, You know, the Humboldt took notice, everybody took notice of Humboldt and, and because it was a big accident, but if you add up all the deaths across Canada, you know, two here, one there, three over here, it's going to add up to a lot more than Humboldt actually, and no one paid attention to that, you know, and, you know, my, my biggest goal always has been is, you know, you say, it's, One life. I mean, you know, you've done something, right? Yeah.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Like, the last stat I saw, by the way, for trucking, was 26 deaths per 100, 000 truck drivers. Now, that's an American stat. I have not seen a Canadian stat, but I gotta believe that's pretty accurate here in Canada as well. Gotta be close. 26 truck drivers dying per 100, 000 truck drivers. It's just too many and we can improve it by having good schools and good instructors out there. Absolutely.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

And good mentorship. Mentorship is everything. You know, it's like I said before, it's a six week program. It's a big program here, but it's still not long enough. You could have a 12, 15 week program. It still needs mentorship.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Well, I really hope that as we develop and move towards getting it to be a trade that Some ongoing education would be required as a trade, and especially before you become a journeyman, you would have to go back. As I said, my son's in carpentry, and he said, Dad, you can't believe some of the bad habits these people get into early in their profession. And by going back to school, it really helps get rid of some of those bad habits, and it's just, it's professional.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

You know, a lot of people don't realize they have the bad habits until it's pointed out, right? Right. Yep.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Yeah. Well, you know what? I want to go back and touch on something you had mentioned there with young drivers and whatnot. And unfortunately, Chris and I see this all too often in transportation customers. You'll get a new driver. He's with the company maybe six months and now all of a sudden he becomes the mentor To the next new driver that just came out of school and it's like I use the phrase babies teaching babies And it's like holy crap, you know, and and then on top of that you don't even have a structured program you're just putting the two of them in the truck sending them on their way and Disaster is gonna happen and it does and it's unthinkable Fortunate. And so part of that problem stems with the motor carrier. They have to realize what's going on and they need to be part of this association as well, to work with the schools, to say, not only do the schools across Canada, can we raise the bar, but as a motor carrier that's doing a mentoring program, we need to raise the bar as well. We need, we need to have mentors within our organization, a structured program, to be able to help these young people become better

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

drivers. Absolutely. And that's what I was saying earlier. I mean, the companies that, you know, they need to step up and put some skin in the game, you know, and it would be nice if there's some sort of compensation for that through the government, you know, because it does cost a lot of money. I mean, if you look at a good finishing program for a company to do it properly. You're looking at 10, 000 to 15, 000 to finish that one individual off. You know, so it does cost a lot of money on their end. So, you know, they are stepping up. A lot of the companies are stepping up and getting that.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Many of the quality companies, and I'll jump over to Winnipeg there and say a Bison for example. They do it. They have a great finishing program and if you're a young driver looking for a job. Search out companies that absolutely do have finishing programs.'cause that's what you deserve as

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

a new driver. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and you know Bison's finishing program is second to none. You know? Yeah. They really pay a lot attention to what they're doing. And their safety record shows that y

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

year after year, what it was, it, seven out of 10 years and years, bison was rated the safest trucking company in North America.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Because they're doing things right, they're doing it properly. Right. Cause they're taking the time and the investment to put into that new driver. Yeah. It

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

costs money and bison spends it. Yep. Bison's not the only one. It just, because you're in Winnipeg and you know Rob Penner and I know each other I'm sure, you know, Rob as well. It's easy to sing the praises of a bison, but there's many other trucking companies as well. Absolutely. Jim, we're wrapping it up. What else do we need to know about the Professional Truck Training Alliance of Canada?

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Well we did we do have our board of directors and executive directors. I, I, I. I think we could run down the list. I believe there's nine people on there. You know, Don McDonald. He's from Calgary. Carmilla Genaro from Edmonton. Earl from Mattson. Training is Saskatoon. Chris Schroeder. He's from Yukon, Northwest Territories. Nunavut. Jeremy Turrell, Nova Scotia. Matt, you probably know Matt Richardson, from Caledonia, Brian, you know Livleen Livleen, I think it is, Ontario 2012 from Blooming North, you know, these are all the like minded people that we Originally sat down and talked to going back when we first started this, right? And so we got a lot of provinces covered. A lot of these are, you know, they've been involved right from day one and we're all pushing for the same thing. So instructed certification. Oversight is, we talked a little bit about the oversight. No oversight. I think there's nine people, I don't know how many schools in Ontario, but there's quite a few in Ontario and Mississauga alone, I believe. Nine people doing an oversight.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

And those nine people aren't just doing oversight on truck driving schools. They're doing the hairdressing schools and all the other schools that are involved as well. It's really inadequate.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Sorry. We have two people doing 500 schools here. Yeah. You know, it's all, yeah. I don't think anybody's gonna get knotted anytime soon, really? But unless something goes wrong. Right. And, and that's where they, I think that's the major ball that they dropped to is oversight and, you know. Yeah. You can't just put program around and just do your own thing and, yeah.

John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:

Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, those, these folks that are doing, you know, the oversight reviews or audits or whatever it be, they're not specialists in. In your school realm, they're generalists. They're just looking to see, do you have some documentation in place? Do you follow the rules that you're supposed to? But, they're not like people that have driven tractor trailers, so they have a more insight as to what they're looking for when they go into that school.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Actually, these two actually have a license, but I think between the, you know, between the two of them, it's not a whole lot of experience. I, they definitely don't have and not just this province, you know, I mean, to do the oversight, you gotta have the experience on not just the trucking industry, but how to teach properly and what are you teaching. And so there's so much more involved in truck driver training than people. Realize, you know, and I gained six weeks for me. It's just never long enough. It just goes so fast and you try to get as much information as you can and Throwing at these students in six weeks and then hopefully they go with the company that's going to carry on the mentorship So those are some of the things that we're really pushing for But we want harmonized regulation and compliance through all the schools and, and across Canada. So we're all dealing on the same level, right? And pushing out the same quality of drivers. We're, we're just tired of seeing less than qualified drivers out there causing havoc, right? And they need, we, we just, it's time for change.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

It is, and a great organization has been started now, and it's getting industry support, it's getting It's getting industry support from other like minded owners of truck driving schools like yourself and it's getting industry support from people like, you know Kelly Henderson's group Mac, or sorry, Matt Mike Millions, PMTC. I mean, this is industry support, so it's great. And congratulations, Jim, for being involved. I know you're not the only one, but for being involved in getting this thing off the ground, I agree 100 percent with you that We need better oversight. We probably need better standards as well, and we need consistency right across the country.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Absolutely, and that's where you know, you mentioned Kim Richardson earlier. I do have to let you know that Kim was my co chair at first, and he was my first phone call. You know because I did some research on TTSAO, and I got talking with him, and the guy is amazing. You know, he, he really is. And, and so he helped me launch this thing. And and we, he also owns trans rep as well. So we hired trans rep to kick off the association, build it strong and, and move forward. So Kim has, we hired him as our senior advisor. And so, so you know, a big shout out to Kimmy. We've come so far. He is done so much work with, with me and with the rest of the group that this, this is not all about Jim. I mean, I, I put the ID out there and Kim and I started making phone calls and, and we, we got connected with the right people and it's the right people that are, are pushing us forward, you know, without, without what we have right now for involvement. We, we wouldn't be this far.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Cool. Yeah, no, you need support and it's a, it's always a team.

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

Absolutely. There's no way I'd be able to pull this off on this. Hoffman, I doubt it. I doubt it.

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Well, and not I'm

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

not going to lie, right?

Chris Harris, Safety Dawg 1:

Yeah. But you're also running a successful school and also in an endeavor like this is a huge undertaking and I for one Congratulate you for doing it because it Thanks for coming on the

Jim Campbell, PTTAC:

show Training Alliance of Canada. All right, Jim. Thanks. Keep up the great work. That's it for this week. On the trucking risk and insurance podcast. Please leave a comment in the notes down below. Uh, did you enjoy the episode? Give it a, like, if you did. Appreciate you all so much. That's it. For this week on the trucking risk and insurance podcast.

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