Join Chris Harris, Safety Dawg, John Farquhar from Summit Risk Solutions, and Joel LaCoursiere from Paradigm Ticket Defence as they discuss the changing landscape of the trucking industry. From hybrid court systems to facility audits to safety compliance in trucking companies, this podcast covers it all. Hear Joel's unique perspective on the industry, gained from his former police career. Get up to date on the latest news, and gain valuable insights from experts in the field. Tune in now to get the inside scoop on the trucking industry.
Contact Joel at,
info@paradigmticket.com
https://paradigmticketdefence.ca
(416) 909-0620
John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Join Chris Harris, Safety Dawg, John Farquhar from Summit Risk Solutions, and Joel LaCoursiere from Paradigm Ticket Defence as they discuss the changing landscape of the trucking industry. From hybrid court systems to facility audits to safety compliance in trucking companies, this podcast covers it all. Hear Joel's unique perspective on the industry, gained from his former police career. Get up to date on the latest news, and gain valuable insights from experts in the field. Tune in now to get the inside scoop on the trucking industry.
Contact Joel at,
info@paradigmticket.com
https://paradigmticketdefence.ca
(416) 909-0620
John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Joel, welcome to the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. How have you been My.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Chris and John. I'm doing well my friend. I'm doing fantastic. I'm very much excited to be here and I appreciate you having me. And, uh, for those that don't know, I'm Joel, of course, here, paradigm Ticket Defense, which, uh, specializes in C V O R defense. Um, I've drawn upon my former police career that it's lent well and, uh, it's been a unique couple of years and it's been a unique. It's been a unique, uh, yeah, it's been a unique experiences last couple years with the hybrid court
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:I bet. I can just imagine.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Alright, you, you were well tongue tied while you were off camera. You got talking about court. I mean, as a paralegal, I gotta believe that you spend an awful lot of time in court defending trucking companies with their CVOR violations. How has that been going? Well,
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:as you guys can probably, well imagine there, the, the pandemic's obviously taken a, a great toll on many industries, but there was a driver's shortage previously, and I think once a lot of the circumstances that the, you know, the government tried to roll out the vaccine mandates, et cetera, the truck industry has grown and changed immensely over the last couple of years. But, um, the court system has, has had to grow as well. Like a lot of times for years I drove feverously around the province to try to get, um, To each court on time. The nice thing is now the luxury is we have, they're hybrid courts, which means they're running by a zoom. And for the most part, you can kind of cover six or seven courts in a day. If you're crafty enough, you have a couple laptops going. But it's made for, uh, a unique, what we're gonna call this, a unique, um, exercise in patience, , cuz it's not running the scheme, but the government tries to implement something that has technology as a. It's not always their best rollout, but it's kind of catching up now, so it's becoming more manageable now. Oh,
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:good.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Good. The mm-hmm.. And John, uh, you and I were at a conference recently where Sean Duette. Yes. Uh, Sean, in case you don't know, or our listeners don't know, is the head of MTO and Yep. John, did he imply at that, uh, conference that the facility audits were likely to continue being Zoom meeting?
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yes, yes. Uh, he has said that, uh, it's, it's made them happen a lot more frequently and, uh, made it a little easier for the officers to be able to conduct those audits. So, yeah. So I see a hybrid model of that going on as we see.. Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: Yeah. So I, I just find that's interesting, Joel, as you said, government and technology. Um, yeah, sometimes it's interesting mix.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Oh, sometimes I guarantee, but after year two that we're doing this now and back in certain courts in person, but I, until there's a, uh, an announcement from, um, the chief mag, the chief Justice. It, it's gonna remain hybrid for at least 2023, and I'm guessing, probably moving forward, it's got a, a huge upside for a multitude of reasons. One of them is there's several courthouses that are aging and to rebuild them when we know that the government's kind of fiscally strapped. If you can save a couple hundred million bucks by building a courthouse, It's not required. You, you can get just as much done. And in fact, the, the course, the, the courts that I was in this week, um, some courts are more efficient than others, but there's two courts that I was in this week. I've never seen a docket with such a list, and it was absolutely sailing through it very simply. I mean, a lot of times, um, a decent paralegal or loyal will call ahead and, and negotiate and resolve a matter beforehand. But man is well oiled and that's not something I often use as a vernacular. Describe a government idea.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah, yeah. Government and well oiled in the same sentence is not, it's kind a bit of an, but ob obviously with, with the, um, The, the various different court cases and whatnot and, and the level of complexity. Some of them, it'll be a lot easier in this fashion to be able to run a l uh, a number of them through the system much faster, clear them out, you know, ease up on the backlog and whatnot. Obviously, for those ones that are less complex,
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:of course, and to be honest with you, John, that's, I, I am doing the math on my, my files. In less 10 years, less than 1% of my cases actually go to a full on. Um, a lot of times it's just, it's negotiations. You're mitigating a lot of times aggravating circumstances that you guys can appreciate with the, with the driver pool being pretty shallow these days, you're getting a lot of, a lot of driving behaviors that are probably pretty correctable through proper training. Unfortunately, that would be my next right line of attack would be to talk about safety compliance managers, because there's a. There's a real vacuum right now for quality in the, um, in the care industry. Mm-hmm. in certain positions, and one of them start everything, as we all know. Um, a, a, a proper company starts with a, a good, uh, safety compliance department with knowledgeable people. Yeah. And from there, they're able to hire and recognize what they require in good hires. Not always the case, as you guys are probably well versed with as well.? John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:as you, as you said, I think every position, probably in every industry, but certainly in trucking. I mean, we need mechanics, we need dispatchers, we need safety and compliance people and we need truck drivers. Uh, but we also need people to pour coffee at Tim Horton's. Mm-hmm.. Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence: of time, it's getting a little bit better now, but for a period of time, just about every business you walked into had to help, wanna sign on it. And the trucking industry certainly was not exempt to those sorts of rules, but it, uh, there's still a lot of catch up to do. Um, to be fully honest there, there's a lot of carriers that are looking for representation, but the first thing I do is interview the, the person that they've put forward, which is safety compliance departments. And a lot of times I'm just finding. It's a, it's a quick conversation because if I don't have that liaison within a company, I'm not gonna, I have to not only be the educator, the onus is on me to be a lot of other things, and it makes it difficult and quite frankly, not worthwhile. So even if they're willing to pay the money and, and occasionally you, um, You want to give somebody a chance, but invariably more times not, it proved to be exactly what your intuition was telling you from the onset. Steer. Clear . Yeah.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Uh, Joel, when we talked last talked a few weeks back, you were on a rant and this is what I, uh, wanted. You have you back on the show. Well, cuz you had a, we'll say a bird under your saddle. Well,
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:I'm, I'm a passionate guy, and when I, when I get a, a topic that needs to be refreshingly spoken about, I, I, I usually come up with some good adjectives, but I mean, I Sure, I, I know what you're speaking about. And that was a, a horrific, well, it was a company that I was representing for years that had a very horrific, uh, crash, that had a tragic ending to it. And it was a company that was always kind of concerned about in terms of their, um, well, their safety compliance department. It lacked a lot of, Knowledge, it lacked a lot of adherence to training and just flat outed, accountability wasn't there. And when the same company keeps coming back to you, and not only is it, you know, been involved in a horrific tragedy where, where a life was lost habitually getting cell phone tickets and handheld device tickets from the same company just tells me that nothing, nothing is resonating from these lessons. It's. It's in one ear or the other. And, and I can't in good faith go to court for companies that do not figure things out. There's less, you can learn several ways in life if you don't learn something from a hard lesson. Mm-hmm., it doesn't matter. There, there, there's sometimes irre unable. So this, this company obviously I no longer work with, but it, uh, I, I just thought the audacity, I thought you guys, you know, what I used to do for a living, and it's not that I was super military as a police officer, but in the same token, You want to prevent things from happening in the first place and then a company goes through something like that and there's been no lesson learned. You're on your own. And um, I hope they, I hope they learned it at some point cuz it's in any driver here in Ontario could benefit from a company that's properly run. You guys know that you've been doing this for a long time as well. And that was my rant that the last time we spoke it was still fairly fresh on the tongue and I was, uh, Yeah, it was a little missed. And I think, I know you're a safe zoned event too, because you go through the same.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yep. You know, as you say, John and I run into customers all the time who, uh, don't learn. Like we can go in and we can fix issues, uh, not the same issues that you're addressing, but we can fix issues. And we go back six months later and it's back to the way it was. Well, is that a sign of a morality? Uh, Question from management.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Well, well said cuz all three of us would run into a lot of similar common problems that we see within a company. And, and our goal is, my goal is always to, and I know it's counterproductive for business. We, we both know that there's, there's tens of thousands of, of carriers here in Ontario, most of which could use health on some level. But the entire goal is to improve these companies, which I know hurts my bottom line, but that's okay. There's 10 other carriers behind them that are gonna require health, and once you have something templated in terms of how you do business like you guys do, you can pretty well. You can train anybody to do it. The key is they have to be accountable and they have to be willing to follow it. Mm-hmm.. And that requires discipline and putting measures in place that you're gonna do these things. And when they're not, I'm sure you beat your head off of a wall when you go back six months later and all the suggestions, ideas, and the training you implemented is not to be found. Yeah. That's a lack of accountability And to me, it's always started with the carrier ownership. And good carriers have great owners, and that's the one thing I've started to learn. And they're, they're carriers that are very involved by the way the owners. Just as likely to be found. Backing up a truck if required in the yard as they're in the wheel and actually bringing a delivery if need be. That's the dedication and that's what I like to work for in companies I like to work with. It's just unfortunate they seem to be getting fewer and farther between the ones that are established. Not a problem, but these newer companies that are popping up. I wouldn't lend them a skateboard, let alone a, an 18 wheeler. But, uh, welcome to life. Yeah, I, I
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:think we could all agree that, um, a great success story for each one of us is working with a client, uh, helping them to improve. They take it upon themselves to own those responsibilities. They no longer have those issues. They have full control, they're fully accountable, and they no longer. Us, the three of us, they no longer need us because they've managed to put things in place, put people in place, and, and it's successful. And I'm quite happy to have that success story because as you said, Joel, there's 10 other clients lining up at the door that are screaming for my assistance. Right. So, and, and that just throws everything off.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:That's right. And, and I, I know philosophically we've always lined up, the three of us have always been on the same page where we want somebody. You know, gonna be accountable and follow exactly what we're doing. We've, we've spent our lives culminating the experiences that we have to instill in other companies and, and we just wanna see what's done right. And yeah, it's good for business. It's good for everybody's safety on the road. And at the end of the day, when you see these companies consistently cutting corners, it's just the, the inclination to come continue working with them at any price. It's just, The incentive's lost, and that's why I'm, I'm sure thankfully the vast majority of the people that I work with, the vast majority of the carriers, they're we're all on the same page. It's just when the phone rings and I've, I've been referred by so-and-so. Can you look after our carrier? Well, I've got a lot of precursory questions that I now run through. And it's not just a matter of looking at their level two and seeing what their over overall violation rate is and historically where their problems lie. I want to know what's been put in place since these problems that are on your abstract have come to life, and who are you working with because the, the term third, well, the third party consultant., that's another branch. If you want me to go down, we can, but the, there's a lot of safety consultants. Go for it. Go for it. Ok. Well, the, the safety consultant is a very loosely generated term and it's, it, it's being widely used right now. And when I really, I don't have to get past too many simple questions to realize this person has no idea what they're talking about. So I don't know what safety they're implementing. They don't have knowledge, at least not enough for me to want to continue the conversation or work with them. And that's become the other concern that I've seen since the pandemic hit and covid, et cetera, is that the, a lot of these companies are springing up and I just don't know. It's almost like the blind leading the blind there. There's a handful of people I know that when I refer you guys., I know what they're getting. I know what you guys do. I know what you'll bring to the table. And your goal is to, like you said, is to work with somebody short term, implement all these ideas and all these, um, policies and procedures, so it becomes a template that everybody can just follow. It's quite, it's quite manageable, but. You guys are not the norm. Um, and I think that's why you guys have probably been busier than you've ever been like I am. Um, it's because there's just the lack of quality. There's a quality vacuum right now, and until that's rectified, um, I always drive a little bit slower and a little bit more cautiously on the 400 series highways because , I don't know. Some of these carriers could be called Wheel Off Deluxe, and they'd be. Not, it would not be misaligned with what happens in their, their, their safety records. But, uh, so true.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:It's, you mentioned wheel ops, and this is, we are making this recording in early January. You mentioned that MTO just had a, uh, a wheel, entire
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:blitz. They did last, last, uh, early the, the last couple of weeks they've been pulling over vehicles to check lugs and, and hub assemblies, et cetera. Um, preventatively like they often do, but it was a blitz cross the province here, and I don't think the numbers have been released yet. Not that I've been seen, but there's been more frequency of serious offenses such anything involving a wheel off. So I think they're very, the MTO was, is always quite diligent, but they're also very good at figuring out what a problem. and then going out and policing it. And I think that's the way you have to proactively police things as opposed to just being reactive like most police departments are. Mm-hmm., the MTO has the luxury and the, and the, um, the workforce to go out and enforce things and, and educate. Cuz that's what their mandate is as well, is to educate people. So we know that there's only so much you can do with a pre-trip inspection. Oftentimes you can have a mechanic do the pti and a wheel can still come up, something that you can't see. It's just metallurgy, whatever the situation that causes it. But I think by the m t o going out and educating the public and running, um, different levels of inspections, specifically aimed at, at, at reducing the amount of instances of wheels coming off, I think that goes a long way. And that's one thing I, I mean, get me wrong, my phone generally rings more because they are still enforcing, but the educational components being more focused on, and that's what I'm impressed with is because at the end of the day, none of, none of us want to. Fatalities. None of us want hear about a, a wheel flying into, you know, a vehicle or bouncing across the median into oncoming traffic. It's a missile and it's, it's a charge that I've been seeing with more frequency in the last three years. And, and I think by having these blitz, it's, it's everybody's best interest.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, this is a, a perfect time for motor carriers to be proactive in their approach. And when they hear this kind of news, they should be asking themselves, what is it we're doing? Or are we not doing enough of? And they should be looking at their own programs with their maintenance and uh, making sure that they don't have to call somebody like Joel to, uh, to have something addressed down the road. They could be sitting there going, Hey, we're proactive. Uh, we've got best practices in place and this is why we don't have wheels flying off our trucks. We don't have these major
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:violations. I fully agree with you, John, and it, and it's interesting cuz there was a lot of downtime during Covid. There was a lot of times. I mean, carriers would never stop, obviously, with them being deemed essential, which they always were. Um, you're right, there was a, there was a period of time where they had a lot of trucks that were off the road, which probably gave them the opportunity to inspect things and the proper companies. It also gave 'em a great time to, to train drivers, you know, more proactively. But I'm, I'm, I'd fully agree with you. There's definitely been a, uh, a good window of opportunity and, and the companies that I do work with, That were already smooth running. They, they have marked improvement even further. Again, um, my phone just does not ring from them as often because they really have their, they have their business together. And, and I, I love that. Invariably, any client you've ever gone to court for or you've helped out, they don't forget those things. And whenever they, somebody calls them for advice as to where to go, they're, they're gonna get referrals to people like yourself and myself. And I think that's the. That's the pride of what we do. And it's a beautiful thing when you work with a carrier that's as proactive as what you just described, and they're definitely out there, so kudos to them. I thank them for their, their efforts and I appreciate it.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Let me ask Johnny a question. John, do you think drivers are doing a better pre-trip today or, um, a worst pre-trip today Blanket. Um, mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm., you know, but generally speaking with the carriers that I work with are 25 trucks and less, or 50 trucks and less, I have an opinion. But John, what's your opinion? And then Joel, you can answer the, the same question based on, yeah, yours is gonna be based on different, uh, knowledge and experience. But Johnny, what do you think? Are they doing a better So, well,
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:I was gonna say, I, I was gonna say based on the, the fleets that I see, which are probably that 50. 50 and up. We're talking 50 up to a few hundred. Uh, I would say, uh, less. They're doing, doing less of a job than they were years ago. I, I, I'm just seeing laas issues, uh, coming from drivers not doing a proper thorough pre-trip.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Joel, what are you seeing out there? I,
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:I concur entirely with John. What, what I've, what I've found now is with the reliance of ELDs, and it's simply a keystroke to say that the, the PTIs been done. Um, The, the, there's no question I've, I've seen an uptake in log related offenses and some of which is for entering inaccurate information. Some of these ELDs, they're not programming some of the things that they ought to be, but there's also just the, the simplicity of just being able to say it's been completed when in fact it, it probably hasn't been the proper companies are, are, are doing a better job. I would think some of the ones that are, um, like John mentioned, the 50 carriers to, you know, I've got one carrier I think that's got 1400 trucks. Um, but there's no question there's. Uh, it's a little simpler now to simply not walk around with a clipboard like the old days where you had a, a PTI that was paper and you had to sign off pen and paper. The keystroke has made it a lot easier. And I think with that, the companies that are likely to slack are, and that's where I'm getting an uptick in, in some of these log related offenses, which all of which carry CVOR points ranging from two to five, depending what the, the charge is. But there's hundreds of them to write and I'm seeing quite a bouquet from certain companies. John's not wrong. He's definitely. Well,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:I think PT generally, so
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:tell us, Chris, what, what is your opinion? Chris? We wanna hear yours first before you go too far.. I was gonna
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:say, I think generally PTI has gotten worse. Uh, the drivers aren't doing the vehicle inspection. I got a question for Joel related to that though. Have you seen logbook? Tickets or ELD tickets related to the inspection. Um, because you must see a lot of tickets is what I'm thinking. And, uh, I got two questions about ELDs and tickets that I just thought of. Shit, uh, I just swore too. Oh, oh. Um, but are you seeing, you mentioned more logbook violations. What types of logbook or ELD violations are, are you seeing.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Well, what's interesting is before I used to get many charges for minor defect or major defect or, um, breaks being out of adjustment, and it was usually just a solitary ticket. But now I'm seeing that there's a presumption that you didn't do your p t I, which is why you didn't catch these major defects that I'm speaking of. and they're writing both tickets and sometimes in, well, I had a, a, a, a driver last week for a carrier. There was nine tickets between the carrier and the driver. Uh, six of the nine were, were, were related to, well, for the company not checking and ensuring that the daily inspection report's been done and for the driver, once they have the, a foot in the door with a defect, they just assumed that the PTI process was not done. And it, I'd be hard pressed to argue with, with what John said earlier. He's probably right. They're just, they're just not doing it. When you could, when have the ability to get into a truck and turn the, turn the vehicle on, let it warm up, and which was the opportune time, obviously, to do a pti, it's a keystroke. It's a keystroke. The vehicle's already already running. You just have to click whether or not the PTIs been done. You have to fill in, of course, the, the applicable information with the vehicle and the plate number and the mileage, et cetera., but a lot of these tickets are being given in tandem before when they were standalone in the past, and that's where they're becoming. It's not uncommon for a driver to be to have a vehicle stopped now where the driver's got, you know, 2000 to 2,500 bucks in tickets on the driver, and then you have the same replicated for the company, all of which revolves around the potential of a pre-trip inspection not being done properly. And Wow. It's a, it's a common situation and it's, a lot of these tickets are very damaging to the five CVOR points. Nobody wants to eat them. Yeah.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, I was gonna say, Chris and I have, uh, have talked many, many times in the past, uh, about how this could be prevented, you know, and, and, and we're strong believers in a, uh, Particular pay compensation package, you know, where let's get these drivers on an hourly or salary basis and make sure that they feel compensated for doing that vehicle inspection. Because I think a lot of 'em right now, it's, no, I'm not paid to do that. I'm paid to drive the truck and get miles cuz I'm paid by the mile. So if the truck ain't turned and I ain't getting paid. So change that. Pay schedule, pay model and uh, I think we can change the mindset of some of these drivers and we could get a better vehicle inspection.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:I like that you mentioned this because as you guys historically have known a lot of these carriers, they have incentive programs where, and, and sometimes it's a $50 Tim's card, sometimes it's extra cash in your pockets. Sometimes it's, it's a bonus structure at work like you just suggested. And I think if you have to indoctrinate the culture of a company with incentives like that, Not a problem. Once you put it in place, the wheels in motion will happen, and I think it becomes ingrained and you don't have to pull the incentive program. I think you have a good driver. You, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys, you have a good, a good driver. I think you, you, you need to compensate them these days because if you don't, they're gonna go elsewhere. Where compensation would be greater. They're, they're driving trucks in certain routes. They've been doing it a long time and for many cases they've been driving for a decade longer. But I think once they become ingrained, they're gonna be, as you know, the allegiance to stay with the company is not as great as it once was. Cuz there's, there's a lot of signing bonuses now for certain companies and there's a lot of poaching going on. But I think as long as you have a good incentive program in place and you have a good fleet that's well maintained, it, it's, it's a lot easier for a driver. And sometimes that's, That's plenty. But you have to reward the people that are, you know, keeping the, the company afloat as well. And I think the incentive programs brilliant.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yeah. Hey, and I've gotta, the, the audience will love this one cuz Joel, you don't know this question's coming at you. Um, but it was, it's one of the questions that I've been on a rant for a long time and. I want your opinion whether I'm barking up the wrong tree or not, because I've been told I am. It revolves around personal conveyance in the states, uh, Canadian drivers using PC as it's called, and then crossing the border, and I've been told receiving tickets here in Ontario for what is a legal use of personal conveyance in the states, and then they come across into Ontario and receive a ticket. Have you seen any
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:of. To be honest, I, I, I don't, I don't know what, uh, what we're speaking of. It's news to me. What, what, what is the personal conveyance? We call it personal. You'd have to edit this part, obviously,. Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: Oh, no, use And personal use is off duty. Right? Personal conveyance is the American, um, version of it, except for in the states you can have a. and it can be loaded so it doesn't meet our definition of personal use. And so it's off duty in the states and they can legally use it in the States. And I've been told that when they hit the border, especially if it puts them over their 70 for the week, they're gonna get a ticket, but it can also interrupt their 10 hours off. And the officer can then write a ticket. You know what, I've had a couple of instances of that, but I will say that I think some of the carriers that are likely to be bending and breaking the rules are probably what we're speaking of right now. Because the carrier I, this is, it's not the first time I've heard of the concept, but it's the first time where I've had. I, I can only think on very small terms how many times I've, I've come across this and I think it's all because I only do my best to represent reputable carriers where they're not gonna be, um, you know, worried about the, the, in terms of the hours of service. They're not gonna toy or contemplate any potential infraction, cuz as we know, it doesn't matter which side of the, the border you're on, if you get involved in a serious accident and you been pushing the envelope as to how many hours you've been driving. You can be darn sure that any lawyer, if there's something that comes about in a, in a lawsuit afterwards, and we don't deal with small lawsuits, we're pushing tens of thousand pounds of, of steel and rubber down a road. When we crash into things, it gets expensive. And if there's been any sort of bonus of contention as to what, what your hours of service have been on either side of the border, you can be rest assured it's gonna be investigated by somebody after the fact. The carriers I, I deal with, I've not had this as any sort of, um, common., but I am familiar with what you're speaking in terms of, there are some companies that have, um, a lot of routes that are under one 60 and they're not sure about why they're putting ELDs. But that one 60 kilometers, for example, it grows all the time. Apparently you can grow the hundred 60 Ks just by adding water, but there's no question. I have some companies that are routinely doing, you know, um, the one 60 and then diligently, they make sure that it's, it's that they are not allowed outside that range, which is a nice thing, but it's kind of speaking basically to the same things that we. We're pushing right now, but the conveyance is, is something thankfully I don't have a lot of experience with cuz the carriers I represent have not been pushing the envelope thankfully.. Good.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Cool. Good. I've, I've, I've actually heard of some carriers from a best practice approach. They have basically disallowed the use of personal conveyance with their drivers. Um mm-hmm., they're very diligent about their route planning, uh, and making sure that they just don't put their drivers in that situation, that the driver needs to use that personal conveyance, uh, which is, which is great. We need to see more of those carriers that, uh, that are doing that approach.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Absolutely. And I, and I think once you have things templated and you have ironclad policies and procedures of ways of doing things, I think those, that's, that's the best case scenario for everything. Is it for everyone involved? Cause as soon as you, you're starting to cross the border and there's obviously, there's different rules applicable to both sides. Mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm.. The best device is not to push the envelope if you've been driving. You're a lot of the mount here in Ontario that should, that, that's plenty. Just because you can get away with something in different states, et cetera. It doesn't make it a wise practice. And that's some of the things that we're constantly driving home with these
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:carriers. Yeah. In, in some defense of the drivers that are in the states, uh, the idea of personal conveyance is, To allow the driver to get to a point of safety. Um, yes. Right. Should their hours run out And we all know that there's a, a parking problem in North America, not just in the States. Mm-hmm.. And it's easy for a driver to have his plan and the plan to blow up for a number of different reasons. And, and so personal conveyance was designed, I think, a little bit for that, where, hey, if you get stuck somewhere, you can drive a few extra. To a point of safety for you, your truck and your cargo. But
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:yeah, that was the essence of it. But it's been widely abused and I'm Yes. Field old adage of you. By planning you, you eliminate a lot of failures. And by not failing to plan, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna fail for sure. So, yeah, I, I think when you start pushing the envelope, but the essence of how it was designed was yes. To give you a couple extra minutes. If you had to bring it to a side of the road that was. Somewhere safely off the highway. But you give people a little leverage and there's always, people are gonna run a little further with it. And that's probably the issue.. John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions: talked, Chris and I've talked about this before, the hours of service, uh, the rules specify you can drive up to this maximum number of hours. Doesn't say you have to. Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence: I like. And, and I think that's, that's the, the best way of avoiding these things. You have to have a contingency plan in place and have a 360 way of looking at it because the unexpected becomes the normal for, especially if you're a fringe that's already pushing the envelope, you can be rested. Sure something's gonna happen to you. And when it does happen to you, it could get, could get pretty nasty in a hurry.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yeah. And, and Joel we're just wrapping up, uh, in just a minute. Um, I just wanted to say, Hey, thank you for this and look at there. We got, whoop, let me see if Oh, look at that. Right in focus and everything. Um, nice. The Provincial Offenses Act. Uh, it, this is a great read for people out there. When your drivers get a ticket, oh my goodness, it tells you way too much. But I got a complimentary, uh, book from Mr. Joel Paradigm.
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:Sorry, what was. Paradigm ticket defense. And, and it was my pleasure sending that to you. It's kind of the, uh, yeah, it's kind of the Bible that we go by in terms of knowing what you're up against and, and, and how to avoid things as well. When you start looking at the points in there, there's very few that do not involve CVOR points, and we both, we both, we all know that that greatly affects your insurance rates, et cetera. So Simple book and, uh, John, if you need one, you let me know. I'll glad to get one away. Sure. No. Yeah. Oh, love one. No, it's, it's, they just don't leave them at driver training meetings. Cause apparently they'll go missing. So, Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: no John. I left mine my first copy. I would never do that on that.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Right, sure
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:would., he was kind enough to send me a second, um, copy of it. Uh, you know, I did, but uh, yeah. No, Joel, you are one of the paralegals. Uh, as always, we need more than one of everybody in our, uh, In in our kitty. How would you say that In our bank? And you are one of two that I frequently recommend and
Joel LaCoursiere, Paradigm Ticket Defence:you know, well, I appreciate that. And likewise, you guys are excellent at what you do. You guys have been in the industry a long time when it comes to safety compliance. There's, there's those in the know, and there's those that are not in the know. You guys have always been in the know, and you're continuously learning as we all are of any craft, you. But, uh, I know we have our standards in place and we don't waiver from them, and our job is just to make things a little safer. And that's, if we all did that, I think everything would be far safer. But, uh, I thank you for the opportunity. We'd home at night safely. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. That's the name of the game. But, uh, I certainly appreciate the time here, gentlemen and I, as always, the pleasure speaking to you both.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Well, thanks Joel Paradigm, ticket Defense, Joel's contact info is in the show notes down below. Thanks.