We are discussing truck driver files and what you need in them. In this episode, John and I are talking about the need for Abstracts, Driver Licences and Truck Driver CVORs.
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
1 905 973 7056
Thanks for joining us for another episode of the trucking risk and insurance podcasts, where John <inaudible> and Chris Harris, we discuss everything that has to do with trucking, trucking risk and trucking insurance. This episode, we are continuing on that deep rabbit hole of discussing truck driver files and what needs to be in a truck driver file. Let me grab Johnny Johnny, come on in here. Hey John, How you doing Chris? Good to see you again. It's good. It's a Friday. Another Friday. Yay. God, John it's Friday. Anyways, we have been discussing truck driver files. We've talked about the application form. We talked about references. We've talked about the need to do a road test. And today we are talking about Driver abstracts, license, abstracts, driver licenses, all that good stuff. Yeah. Abstract driver's licenses. And in Ontario or in Alberta, the commercial driver abstract. Right? Since Alberta, I believe. Is that right? John? Alberta's the only other province that has a commercial, Correct? Yep. Okay. Well, Hey, maybe we should talk very quickly before we get into it. Is there a need for a commercial driver's abstract? Like don't have one, are they missing out? Are our recruiters missing out on information? I just, Hey, this wasn't on the agenda, but Yeah, no, I, from what I've seen, like some of them are, are, are nice and simple. Abstracts are very simple and they just include everything. You know, whether it be commercial related or not commercial related, it's all on that one abstract. So I guess, you know, as long as you're getting all the information, that's one of the key areas, but I don't know if the other provinces are even considering doing a, a split abstract. I'm not sure that'd be something that's the provinces. Yeah. That's, it's just, I don't, it was one of those things that came into my head. Hey, A spark that lit Kind of, I it's unusual that it still works from time to time, but okay, let me, let me bring this up here. And since this page came up, this isn't the way I want it to do this, but this page happened to come up To come up anyway, It's going to come up eventually. Anyways, one of the things that I really encourage, everyone who keeps truck driver files to do is to keep the original driver abstract or MVR motor vehicle record. And if you do have a commercial abstract for your drivers, keep the originals. And this is to fight. If you get accused of this negligent hiring thoughts, Johnny on negligent hiring, Oh God, you don't want to get caught in this one. This, this is this, this will hurt if you're, if you're negligent, you know, and, and unfortunately we see it in some motor carriers where they're not doing their due diligence when it comes to properly qualifying that driver. So there's a number of steps. And hence that's what this series is about is, you know, number of those steps that we make sure that you cover off and we're trying to help these people don't get clocked, get clocked, don't get caught being negligent in your hiring practices. Oh, One of the things when it comes to negligent hiring is, or one of the ways to fight it is how did you make that original decision to hire this driver? And so I really think the original abstract and the original commercial abstract have a big influence on your reasoning for hiring that driver. So I want you to keep it for as long as that driver works for you. Great. It's supporting that decision, right? So it's, it's part of that evidence to say, yeah, when I hired this guy, look, he had zero infractions, zero demerit points, clean abstract record and whatnot. And then maybe a year, two years down the road, he picks up a couple of violations, some bad behaviors he's banked up. Right? Well, if he gets involved in a crash, nobody can come back and go, oh, you hired the wrong guy. Well, no, no. Oh, I don't have the original abstract, but if I do, then that's going to show he had a clean driving abstract. So, and then obviously other documents that are going to go with it to provide proof that, Hey, he was a good driver at the time of hire. Yeah. And that's, that's what we want is that you've got in a negligent hiring accusation. That's what you've got to prove is that at the time of hire, this was a good reasonable, logical choice. Right? So keep all the evidence and It's past history, right? That the motor carrier wouldn't necessarily see or be able to get because once the drivers on board with your company, then, okay, no problem. I can see all interactions based on my USD, OT. So not a problem. But prior to that driver coming to me, it's, it has a bit of the same ring as the clearinghouse with drug and alcohol. I can see past history. So now we're getting off at another area that we don't want to go yet. But, but the idea is I'm looking for past history Because I really believe to fight negligent hiring. And the other piece of that is that I always say negligent hiring and negligent entrustment. That's what the lawsuit's going to say. We're not talking about entrustment, but the negligent hiring part is very, you've gotta be able to refute or reboot. Exactly. You know, but Hey, we are talking about the abstract. So we need abstract. John, what would, this was a question, you know, I was talking with Kevin Carroll of ISB today. One of the questions he asked me, which is a great question, what things on an abstract should or could disqualify an applicant? And I said, oh my goodness, that's a great question, Kevin. Yes. Thanks for asking. And I mentioned a couple of things. Yup. Such as well. Of course, drinking and driving or, or impaired driving of course would be one thing within a certain number of years. And I'm not sure what that number is, but within a certain number of years, maybe three or five also administrative suspensions. All right. And for those of you who, or are unclear on what that is, that's when you get your license suspended for what is that? 35, 24 or 36 hours or 72 hours at the side of the road. When you blow greater than 0.05, but you don't blow 0.08. Right? So that would be one of the administrative suspensions that you could get. So anything like that on the abstract, I'm thinking disqualifies an applicant. Are There other striving Dangerous? I was just driving careless driving. That'd be a quick one racing. Oh, boat, a hit and run. Oh God. Yeah. I hit run with yep. I like the ones. Not that I like it. Sorry, but one of the ones in what's the charge when you're doing greater than 50 kilometers above the speed limit, is that racing or dangerous Stunt driving? I Like, not that I liked that one, but I think that ones that would be on that list as well. Well, and, and, and people need to understand why these would disqualify them because you know, it may not hurt you in another type of job, but hang on, we're talking about driving for a career, you know? So you don't need these kinds of behaviors showing up on your driver abstract, even if it happened in your car, that behavior is going to extend it to that commercial motor vehicle. W well, in most companies, if they don't have this policy, they need this policy. But most companies have a policy that the drivers are to tell the employer about all infractions that happen in their personal car, especially accidents, but all in fractions, because it may affect the insurer ability of you buy that insurance company that insures that truck. Yes. Yes. Well, and there's nothing worse than having your insurance company call you up and go, ah, yeah. It's renewal time. And I noticed by the abstract that this driver has these particular behaviors and you get caught off guard because you did that know that. Yes. And part of that, by the way, is one of the things in an M T O audit, if you're from Ontario, that they look to see that you know, about all collisions in the last 24 months and they stress all collisions, including personal vehicles. So it's an important part of the audit process. You need to have that. So that w again, would be on the MVR, but they want to see evidence that the driver told you and that you took some action about it, at least made a note and put it into the file. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's the perfect opportunity to utilize a document, to do an annual review, because that's exactly what you're doing is looking at the MVR, the CBR abstracts, and then sitting with the driver to go, is there something you haven't told me? So Yes. Annual reviews again, this, and it is on if I can bring that up. Now it is on the list of things here And where it ties in with the MBRs is because that's some of the tools that you're using as part of that annual review. Yep. Oh, hang on. Now back to publish. There we go. So this is where his annual review on my hair is down at the very bottom almost. All right. So annual review is something that MTO has written about in their CVR manual that they want you to do. Sure. And of course, if you go to the states, right, John, it is a required, It's a requirement by regulation. Yes. So many things are best practice that MTO tells you about. So getting back to the abstracts and why do we need, or getting back to the topic of the show, why do we need a copy of the driver's license in the file? We, we want to be able to verify that they have a valid driver's license. The abstract will also say this, and you want to be able to compare the two of them. And the bonus part is the driver's license. We'll actually have a picture of the driver to make sure you're talking to the same person, you know, And John, have you ever had an applicant that had a different license number on his license and then on the abstract Yes. Same name, but different driver's license. Like, whoa, hang on here. What's going on? You know, and, and it's common. It's because there's a lot of people with the same name, you know, bill Smith, Joel, whatever, be, you know. Yeah. You know, and we, we see a lot of different names and with a lot of new Canadians coming in, we've got some unique names, different kinds of names, but they're actually a lot of people that I'm seeing him immigrants coming into Canada that only have one name. They don't have a last name or a middle name or anything like that. Yeah. You know, they just have one name and that's all they were given at birth. So that's, what's on their driver's license. And when you get two people that coincidentally work at the same company with the same name, okay, Hey, hang on. Now here, we need to verify by pictures, other identification and whatnot. And compared to these It's, it's amazing. I think I've told you the story. I don't know if I've told it on the podcast or not where I was interviewing a driver and I looked at the driver's license in here in Ontario there, the driver's license number is very specific and there's certain components to it. And here I was, this gentleman looked like a gentleman, and yet he had a female drivers license them. Interesting. Yeah. And it turned out when, after the interview was over, which I didn't hire him. Of course, I called the police to say that I had done this interview and the police said, oh, that's great. Thank you very much. We're looking for that. Gentlemen, people wanted on a warrant, the two, he was asked to leave Canada and he hadn't left yet. Oh wait, there you Go. Yeah. It just, it was kind of funny. And they said you wouldn't happen to have a picture of a muggy or sorry. They asked me if I took a copy of the driver's license. And I said, yeah, he did. I, I also, in those days it was a Polaroid. I mean, we would do digital, but I took a poll. They want what they were in my office within 20 minutes. Well, they wanted the current picture of how this fellow look. But anyways, it was kind of funny. And if you don't know, for those of you out there, that there is a way to read the driver's license and tell whether it's male or female and stuff. Yeah. Reach out Johnny, or I'll set you up with that. Or you can just Google it. Of course. And same with a SIM number, by the way, there is a mathematical formula that you can use to, I isn't a formula. I don't know. I don't, that's new. I hadn't heard that one before. That's interesting. I thought it was anyways. There is a way to verify that a sin number is legit. Right. So, all Right. We, it's interesting. We talked about abstracts. We talked about driver's license. Why do we need the backside of a driver's license? Especially here in Ontario when the backside of mine has almost no, really nothing that I can read on it. Well, there's a barcode on the back of your driver's license. No. Well, you got to put your glasses on. I found that. Yeah, you gotta put your glasses on, but there is also a code on there and there are conditions on the back of your eye, a driver's license. So they need to be again, verified cross-reference with your abstract. So, but it's, it's vital information. All right. Last question. I got kind of, maybe we're only a few minutes and this is probably going to be a shorter episode, but How Often? Well, yeah, and I got two questions. How often should we be pulling the abstract in your opinion? Yup. It, in my opinion, In your, well, it just in your professional, <inaudible>, That's an opinion. Yeah, there you go. I'm a safety something anyway, but yeah, you should be obtaining your driver abstracts. CVOR MBR on a quarterly basis. What out? You could alternate that if you want it to, but quarterly is the best practice. Why in the world would you say quarterly Johnny? Well, there's interesting. There's this little itty bitty legislation on the books in Ontario and the highway traffic act that talks about driver license suspensions. Yep. That way point that way. And they're they're if your driver is found to have a suspended license or a canceled license of such sort, and they get stopped at a roadside inspection, the officer has the authority to impound the vehicle, truck trailer, and cargo Impound, Impound, impound. Yup. So, which could really leave you in a real bind very, very quickly. So even if the driver was put out of service and said, okay, driver can drive it. You would think, oh, just go pick up the truck and trailer. Well, no, no, no, no, no. You need to provide proof of due diligence before you can do that. And this neat little law, as it says, right here is, is what, what they say is they want you to confirm that you've been checking that drivers validity of their license within a 100 day period. So easiest way to capture that, pull the abstract on a quarterly basis. Now don't only just put it, pull it and put it in the file, but let's review that license licensed abstract. Let's find out. Is there anything on here we should be aware of because Hey, if there's a suspension, notice on that abstract, you better be parking that driver right now. Well, I mean, let's talk and this was the second point. So we're going to pull the abstracts every 90 days. Cause that's quarterly. That's easier. And I think the reason the regulation says 100 is so that we can do it every 90 days. And that's 10 days before 100 I'm, I'm a math genius, Tim Martin. I didn't take my shoes off. I'm good to do that. So, but that gives us that little bit of a buffer of 10 days. So that's perfect. What should we be checking for? There's a lot of information on a driver's abstract. What items would we be checking for? Well, we want to continue just no different than that. The time of hire. We want to make sure the name is correct. Right? Make sure it's the same person. Driver's license number is good class of driver's license, Class of drivers. Johnny, how can we lose a I'll call it lose a class. I'm a class, a driver. How could I get downgraded? Usually the common aspect is due to medical. Whether you have a medical condition or you failed to submit your renewed medical, I have my medical sitting in the back seat of my car right now. I got to go deliver it. Perfect. Make sure you keep a copy. Yes. But yeah. So if you don't hand in your medical, you, and by the way, the old days we used to be downgraded to a D no longer clinic. It goes all the way to You go right to the bottom. So just be aware of that. Go do not collect 200. Yes. So there is an expiry date on the abstract. So we want to make sure that the, obviously the driver's license is not expired. And there's the expiry date for the medical on the app? Yes. So you said in class, so the license, the name, the class, and I'm adding the two expiry dates. Yep. Off The top of her head. Is there anything else we should be checking? Well then of course the history. Yeah. History, but conditions, No Making any, any endorsements maybe on your license. Like obviously most everybody that has an a would also have a Zed that goes with it for the air brake portion, but you may have another condition new for eyeglasses or maybe some other ailment or something. I'm trying to figure out a way to make a w W yeah, yeah, yeah. Good like this maybe. And for our listeners, Johnny what's, what does a w on an abstract indicate It is a waiver sands for a waiver. And usually if you have one on your abstract, you'll have it on your driver's license as well. It'll be on the front of your license. Driver's license Supposed to be. Yeah. So a waiver means that you have a particular ailment does not stop you from driving, but it does limit your con your ability to maybe operate in certain regions like the U S Right. So it is often as you say, a medical waiver that doesn't stop you from driving a commercial vehicle in Canada, but it does stop you from driving the same commercial vehicle in the states. That's the most often used thing for a w Yep. Now the unfortunate aspect here, I want to try to toss this in. Cause a lot of people kind of think that by looking at the abstract and seeing that they have a valid medical, that the driver's a O K to be going to travel to the U S or anywhere the problem with the w form is I found it's inconsistent and it's not used in all provinces. So this causes a bit of grief, especially if you're hiring drivers out of province. So, and I use my dad as an example, he had epilepsy, how does a license? And with that, he should have had a w on his driver's license and his abstract. And he had nothing up until he decided to give it up. So Ontario was missing him for some reason or other. And it, you know, he could have been traveling to the U S with no problem at all. And nobody would've caught him. Nobody would have known any different, Yeah. Oh, we're still humans. We still Exactly There's cracks yet, but it is better than it used to be. So, Yep. Yep. Everybody we need to, sorry. We need to be doing driver's licenses, both sides, putting them in the driver file. We need to be getting the abstracts in Ontario. We are recommending every hundred days, but John that's like 30 $12 for the driver abstract, the personal abstract and another five bucks for the drivers, commercial abstract. Am I doing that every hundred days? Well, the bonus part is we don't have to, we could alternate them and do one then the other, then back to the other one, then back to the other one again. So we could, so throughout the quarter, the F the throat, the 12 months of the year, we would actually pull for driver abstracts and two would be NVRs and two would be CBR abstracts, your commercial driver's license one, and you would satisfy the regulation that's on the books. Yeah. And you'd get an awful lot of information. The last thing I'd like to throw out to our listeners and Watchers is start this rotation of personal commercial abstract pulling 60 days before insurance renewal. Yes. Agreed. Right. Yes. Because of course, 60 days before insurance, where, you know, you should be preparing, starting the preparation for your insurance renewal, and they want to see the three year abstracts or the personal abstract. So 60 days before insurance renewal pull that abstract. And then that's your start date every three months after that you're pulling one or the other, and you just consistently keep doing that for the year. And Bob's your uncle. Everybody's got another blob And It's a great practice. Yeah. One more thing I wouldn't mind adding as a smart practice is to implement a process where you monitor the expiry dates of the driver's license, the medical, whatnot, you know, an Excel sheet, or if you've got software, your, a transportation management system or something where you could at least get alerts to be able to monitor, instead of if you've got a large fleet, the last thing you want to do is be going through the files every month to find out who's got a renewal driver's license and who's due for this. And who's due for that. Well, I mean, I was just going to say, if you're a small fleet, write it on your, I use a calendar on my computer all the time. So on the first of the month, I can write in there. All my drivers have five, only got 10 or 12 drivers. It would be easy just to put it into my calendar at the beginning of the month, remind my need to get that information. As you say, a lot of the fleet dispatching software has this stuff built in. And so many of my clients don't use it and they're paying for it. Yeah, I know. I know. And it's, and it's right there. So utilize it, cause it can really save your bacon. Cause there's nothing worse than, and you know, Chris and I, we both seen this many times is that renewal information that comes into the underwriter and then it flows through to us risk guys, before we come out to visit you before renewal and we go through the driver abstracts, and guess what? There's two guys in the list out of a hundred that have got a expired driver's license and somebody didn't pick it up. And then when we come to meet you, you go, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's embarrassing looking. I really feel bad for you. And it's an easy catch. Yeah, it you're right. I've done it. You've done it. You've caught it. So I think guys, listeners Watchers, if you've got any questions about abstracts driver's licenses, what should be in the driver file, reach out to John or myself and we'd be happy to, and I know John's like I am. If you give us a call for talking on the phone for 10 minutes with you, that's a no charge. We never want to do that to you. You know, if we can be of service, please reach out, send us an email, give us a call. Love to talk to you. Love to give you some advice. And it's, you know, the short ones are free if I've got a bill. Yeah. I'll let you know long before that happens. Hey, you better get permission because this is going to be a longer conversation. I'm going to have to send somebody an invoice. Right. But for those 10 minute phone calls, those brief ones, I can't, it takes me longer to create an invoice. Yeah. So exactly. We, we we're, we're more interested in sharing some information here to help you along. So yeah. So with that, I think a wrap, John, anything last words to add to that? I see blue sky and sunshine, so yeah. Let's get on it. Okay. All right. With that. I will say that's a wrap for this week. We were talking about driver's license and driver abstracts, both commercial and personal. How often should you be pulling them? Hey, if you're getting value and I am sure you are, if you've made it all the way to this part of the show, click like subscribe and leave John or I a comment in the notes down below we'd we personally answer those comments and we'd love to hear from you. What would you like John or I to address in a future episode? Love to hear that. Do you have a suggestion for a guest that you would like to have on the show? Leave us a note. A comment. Thanks so much with that. We are out.